Can you cast a swift action spell as a standard action? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you cast a swift action spell as a standard action? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
farfairer
12-07-05, 03:28 AM Swift and Immidiate action spells do not provoke AoO's normally, and you can only take 1 swift or immidiate acion in a round.

My question is: can you perform an action or cast a spell that takes 1 swift or 1 immideate action as a standard action?

Example: can I (on my action) cast swift fly, mnove 60 ft, land and then cast force wave?

Both spells are swift actions to cast.

If I take a standard action to cast a swift spell does it provoke an AoO?
jokotoko
12-07-05, 04:52 AM I would say that you can since you are trading your standard action for something that costs less time.
eagleye
12-07-05, 04:57 AM As a DM I would allow you to take a swift action (or a free or a move action) as a standard action, without the penalty for being a standard action. So if you were to take a swift action instead of your standard action, you wouldn't provoke AoO.
runestar
12-07-05, 05:52 AM By the raw, you are limited to 1 swift action/quickened spell a round, though I see nothing wrong with letting you trade a standard action to do what you just suggested.
was_fired
12-07-05, 10:18 AM I would let you trade your standard for anything that takes less time (move or free), but I wouldn't allow a move to be traded for a swift or immediate.
jaelis
12-07-05, 10:38 AM I would let you trade your standard for anything that takes less time (move or free), but I wouldn't allow a move to be traded for a swift or immediate.

Why not?

edit: because you don't want to allow three spells per round, of course.
Puca
12-07-05, 11:05 AM Logically, you should always be able to do something slower, or at least use a longer than required period of time to do something.

By that reasoning, you should be allowed to use a move action to make a swift action, or a standard action to make a swift action, or a standard action to make a move action.

Unfortunately, by this logic, you could cast three spells a round (if all or two were quickened or swift spells.) That, I believe, is a bad idea no matter how reasonable the logic. Even getting two spells off per round that have the benefits of a swift action spell seems like too much.

That being the case, I would handle it like this:

You can cast a swift-action spell per round.
You can cast a second swift-action spell in the same round but it uses up a standard action and doing so still provokes an attack of opportunity.

I know that this is less than other would give, but it is still more than a strict reading of the RAW would allow. I just think that casters are strong enough as it is without giving them the ability to cast two or more spells while threatened without drawing an AoO. Those are easy enough to avoid as it is.
Nightspirit
12-07-05, 11:32 AM I(maybe) can allow you to cast 1 spell with a casting time of 1 swift action as a standard action(or 1 round, or more), treating it as a normal spell with a casting time of 1 standard action(or more)

By RAW, i'm not sure, but i think that you cannot use a standard action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action...
tarkin
12-07-05, 12:01 PM I would let you do it. I would also rule that a Swift action spell done as a standard action DOES cause an AoO.
Seeker95
12-07-05, 02:51 PM A move action is a [type] of action. It can only be replaced with a move equivalent action. You cannot repalce a move action with a standard action, or any other non-move equivalent action, regardless of the amount of time it would normally take to perform the action.
farfairer
12-07-05, 03:48 PM Thanks guys.

I have already been doing this in a game, and I wanted to make sure that my GM and I weren't the only ones who thought this way.

Of course, becasue of the character the proccess seems to be a bit abusive, but it requires me to take a standard action (wich does provoke) to use a swift ability.

My character is a Seaker of the Song with Iron Skin Chant and Cloak Dance.

What happens is this:

Round 1 I Sing 2 songs (we'll say Inspire Courage and Dirge of Frozen Loss). I take a swift action to activate Iron Skin Chant, and a move equivilant to activate Cloak Dance.

Round 2 I keep inspireing, activate my Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain (swift action), use a move equivilent for Cloak Dance, and a standard action for Iron Skin Chant.

Basicly the only reason my character can use Iron Skin Chant is because my GM allows me to activate it as a standard action instead of a swift action. I am usually not in direct melee combat so AoOs don't often matter, and if they do Cloak Dance gives me a 20% miss chance.
Seeker95
12-07-05, 05:51 PM How do you sing more than one song at a time?
Forget actions; this would require two mouths.
farfairer
12-07-05, 06:41 PM How do you sing more than one song at a time?
Forget actions; this would require two mouths.

Seaker of the Song PRC gives you the abilities Combine Songs, and Subvocalize.

Combine Songs allows you to sing 2 Bardic music or Seaker at the same time, using 1 standard action to activate both songs.

Subvocalize allows you to stop singing 1 song and start singing a different song as a swift action as long as you are currently using Combine Songs.

Seaker of the Song also has something called Song Refrains wich are a swift action to use, but require you to be singing the main song already.

So it works like this:

Round 1: Spend 2 uses of Bardic Music to activate Inspire Courage and Dirge of Frozen Loss (seaker song gives cold resistance 10 to everyone in 30 ft), this takes 1 standard action.

Round 2: Use subvocalize (and a 3rd use of Bardic Music) to stop singing Inspire Courage and start singing Inspire Greatness as a swift action.

Now if I can use a standard action to activate a swift action ability in round 2 I can also activate the Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain and shoot a 60ft long line of cold that deals 10d6 damage.

My character specificly also has the Feats Iron Skin Chant (Complete Adventurer) and Cloak Dance (Psionics Handbook).

Iron Skin Chant allows you to spend a use of Bardic Music as a swift action to grant any 1 person within 30 ft DR 5/- for 1 round.

Cloak Dance allows you to use a move equivilent action to gain 20% concealment or a full round action to gain total concealment. The ability is not supernatural or spell like.
runestar
12-07-05, 09:08 PM There is also a weapon enchantment in waterdeep that lets you weapon continue singing for you up to 6 rounds after you stop singing. :)

Then what about quickened spells. Would you also allow 3 spells a round?(2 quickened, 1 normal). This discussion seems to be going into very dangerous waters.
MindWandererB
12-07-05, 09:18 PM Then what about quickened spells. Would you also allow 3 spells a round?(2 quickened, 1 normal). This discussion seems to be going into very dangerous waters.
If you swap your standard action to cast a quickened spell, then you can't use that standard action to cast another spell.

I always thought it was silly that a wizard with a Quickened Fireball and a normal Fireball can cast both in a round, but a wizard with two Quickened Fireballs can cast only one.
runestar
12-07-05, 10:21 PM Wasn't there talk of using a move-action to cast a quickened spell? Thus, you would still have your standard action to cast a normal spell. :)
farfairer
12-07-05, 11:44 PM Wasn't there talk of using a move-action to cast a quickened spell? Thus, you would still have your standard action to cast a normal spell. :)

There was, and it was rejected. A move action is a type of action not an action speed. Technically a swift action is also a type of action not an action speed (swift actions take a free action to use), but for discussion its easier to talk in termes of Swift actions and standard actions.

Did you follow all of that?
runestar
12-08-05, 12:56 AM Yeah, its all beginning to seep into my think skull, slowly but surely. :embarrass
Hanniball
12-08-05, 01:18 AM Well, perhaps the RAW will help it sink in a little quicker.

Complete Arcane's sidebar on Swift Actions specifically states that you can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. It then goes on to say that you can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed a free action. So determining whether or not one is entitled to take a free action with her standard action will be the OP's answer according to the RAW. Putting all assumptions aside as to what sounds right, I looked to the Phb.

Unfortunately, the Phb states that the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free/as a free action. Thus, it is entirely up to the particular DM whether or not this is possible. This isn't mearly me stating the exsistance of Rule 0, but a situation that requires a necessary application of it

Either way...just my 0.02 cp :)
farfairer
12-08-05, 01:20 AM Yeah, its all beginning to seep into my think skull, slowly but surely. :embarrass
Good, because I wasn't sure I understood it all. :D
farfairer
12-08-05, 01:28 AM Well, perhaps the RAW will help it sink in a little quicker.

Complete Arcane's sidebar on Swift Actions specifically states that you can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. It then goes on to say that you can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed a free action. So determining whether or not one is entitled to take a free action with her standard action will be the OP's answer according to the RAW. Putting all assumptions aside as to what sounds right, I looked to the Phb.

Unfortunately, the Phb states that the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free/as a free action. Thus, it is entirely up to the particular DM whether or not this is possible. This isn't mearly me stating the exsistance of Rule 0, but a situation that requires a necessary application of it

Either way...just my 0.02 cp :)

That doesn't quite solve the problem.

A swift spell takes a free action to cast.

You can only perform one swift action per turn.

So the ambiguous limit to free actions in a turn is irrelevent to the equasion.

The question is:

Can you cast a spell that has casting time 1 swift action as as a standard action?

Better yet, can you volentarily increase the amount of time it takes to cast a spell?

Can you take 1 minute to cast a spell that has casting time 1 standard action?

Does this work the same for feats and abilities?

If you voluntarily increast the casting time (or activation time) of a swift spell (or swift ability) does it provoke an attack of oportunity?
Hanniball
12-08-05, 01:54 AM The question is:

Can you cast a spell that has casting time 1 swift action as as a standard action?
What a character is allowed to do as a standard action is directly related to when a character is allowed to take a free action and thus, a swift action (which is entirely up to the DM) It sound related to me, but I get caught up in symantecs quite easily at times.

Better yet, can you volentarily increase the amount of time it takes to cast a spell?

Can you take 1 minute to cast a spell that has casting time 1 standard action?

All the Phb says about casting time is:

Casting Time
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Because it says absolutely nothing about voluntarily increasing the casting time and certain feats are required for you to add material components (Primitive Caster maybe? The name escapes me...anyone?) I would so no. I don't see any reason that it would cause any balance issues, but I also fail to see how ruling no would be considered an unfair limitation.

Again, just my0.02 cp
farfairer
12-08-05, 02:09 AM Because it says absolutely nothing about voluntarily increasing the casting time and certain feats are required for you to add material components (Primitive Caster maybe? The name escapes me...anyone?) I would so no. I don't see any reason that it would cause any balance issues, but I also fail to see how ruling no would be considered an unfair limitation.

Again, just my0.02 cp

the reason I feel it could be unfair, is because I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able (as your entire action in a round) cast swift fly, move 60 feet, and then cast force wave.

Because both spells are swift, your ruling would be no.

However I can still cast swift fly, move 60 feet, and then cast Ice Storm.

Plus the feats that allow you to add material components to a spell grant an ability along with that material component. Priomitive caster gives you +1 caster level for each component not normally required by the spell that you add.

What I am (effectivly) asking is can I choose to cast a swift or immediate spell as a standard action, and take all of the disadvantages there in.

It doesn't allow me to cast any extra spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
farfairer 12-07-05, 03:28 AM	Swift and Immidiate action spells do not provoke AoO's normally, and you can only take 1 swift or immidiate acion in a round. My question is: can you perform an action or cast a spell that takes 1 swift or 1 immideate action as a standard action? Example: can I (on my action) cast swift fly, mnove 60 ft, land and then cast force wave? Both spells are swift actions to cast. If I take a standard action to cast a swift spell does it provoke an AoO?
jokotoko 12-07-05, 04:52 AM	I would say that you can since you are trading your standard action for something that costs less time.
eagleye 12-07-05, 04:57 AM	As a DM I would allow you to take a swift action (or a free or a move action) as a standard action, without the penalty for being a standard action. So if you were to take a swift action instead of your standard action, you wouldn't provoke AoO.
runestar 12-07-05, 05:52 AM	By the raw, you are limited to 1 swift action/quickened spell a round, though I see nothing wrong with letting you trade a standard action to do what you just suggested.
was_fired 12-07-05, 10:18 AM	I would let you trade your standard for anything that takes less time (move or free), but I wouldn't allow a move to be traded for a swift or immediate.
jaelis 12-07-05, 10:38 AM	I would let you trade your standard for anything that takes less time (move or free), but I wouldn't allow a move to be traded for a swift or immediate. Why not? edit: because you don't want to allow three spells per round, of course.
Puca 12-07-05, 11:05 AM	Logically, you should always be able to do something slower, or at least use a longer than required period of time to do something. By that reasoning, you should be allowed to use a move action to make a swift action, or a standard action to make a swift action, or a standard action to make a move action. Unfortunately, by this logic, you could cast three spells a round (if all or two were quickened or swift spells.) That, I believe, is a bad idea no matter how reasonable the logic. Even getting two spells off per round that have the benefits of a swift action spell seems like too much. That being the case, I would handle it like this: You can cast a swift-action spell per round. You can cast a second swift-action spell in the same round but it uses up a standard action and doing so still provokes an attack of opportunity. I know that this is less than other would give, but it is still more than a strict reading of the RAW would allow. I just think that casters are strong enough as it is without giving them the ability to cast two or more spells while threatened without drawing an AoO. Those are easy enough to avoid as it is.
Nightspirit 12-07-05, 11:32 AM	I(maybe) can allow you to cast 1 spell with a casting time of 1 swift action as a standard action(or 1 round, or more), treating it as a normal spell with a casting time of 1 standard action(or more) By RAW, i'm not sure, but i think that you cannot use a standard action to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action...
tarkin 12-07-05, 12:01 PM	I would let you do it. I would also rule that a Swift action spell done as a standard action DOES cause an AoO.
Seeker95 12-07-05, 02:51 PM	A move action is a [type] of action. It can only be replaced with a move equivalent action. You cannot repalce a move action with a standard action, or any other non-move equivalent action, regardless of the amount of time it would normally take to perform the action.
farfairer 12-07-05, 03:48 PM	Thanks guys. I have already been doing this in a game, and I wanted to make sure that my GM and I weren't the only ones who thought this way. Of course, becasue of the character the proccess seems to be a bit abusive, but it requires me to take a standard action (wich does provoke) to use a swift ability. My character is a Seaker of the Song with Iron Skin Chant and Cloak Dance. What happens is this: Round 1 I Sing 2 songs (we'll say Inspire Courage and Dirge of Frozen Loss). I take a swift action to activate Iron Skin Chant, and a move equivilant to activate Cloak Dance. Round 2 I keep inspireing, activate my Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain (swift action), use a move equivilent for Cloak Dance, and a standard action for Iron Skin Chant. Basicly the only reason my character can use Iron Skin Chant is because my GM allows me to activate it as a standard action instead of a swift action. I am usually not in direct melee combat so AoOs don't often matter, and if they do Cloak Dance gives me a 20% miss chance.
Seeker95 12-07-05, 05:51 PM	How do you sing more than one song at a time? Forget actions; this would require two mouths.
farfairer 12-07-05, 06:41 PM	How do you sing more than one song at a time? Forget actions; this would require two mouths. Seaker of the Song PRC gives you the abilities Combine Songs, and Subvocalize. Combine Songs allows you to sing 2 Bardic music or Seaker at the same time, using 1 standard action to activate both songs. Subvocalize allows you to stop singing 1 song and start singing a different song as a swift action as long as you are currently using Combine Songs. Seaker of the Song also has something called Song Refrains wich are a swift action to use, but require you to be singing the main song already. So it works like this: Round 1: Spend 2 uses of Bardic Music to activate Inspire Courage and Dirge of Frozen Loss (seaker song gives cold resistance 10 to everyone in 30 ft), this takes 1 standard action. Round 2: Use subvocalize (and a 3rd use of Bardic Music) to stop singing Inspire Courage and start singing Inspire Greatness as a swift action. Now if I can use a standard action to activate a swift action ability in round 2 I can also activate the Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain and shoot a 60ft long line of cold that deals 10d6 damage. My character specificly also has the Feats Iron Skin Chant (Complete Adventurer) and Cloak Dance (Psionics Handbook). Iron Skin Chant allows you to spend a use of Bardic Music as a swift action to grant any 1 person within 30 ft DR 5/- for 1 round. Cloak Dance allows you to use a move equivilent action to gain 20% concealment or a full round action to gain total concealment. The ability is not supernatural or spell like.
runestar 12-07-05, 09:08 PM	There is also a weapon enchantment in waterdeep that lets you weapon continue singing for you up to 6 rounds after you stop singing. :) Then what about quickened spells. Would you also allow 3 spells a round?(2 quickened, 1 normal). This discussion seems to be going into very dangerous waters.
MindWandererB 12-07-05, 09:18 PM	Then what about quickened spells. Would you also allow 3 spells a round?(2 quickened, 1 normal). This discussion seems to be going into very dangerous waters. If you swap your standard action to cast a quickened spell, then you can't use that standard action to cast another spell. I always thought it was silly that a wizard with a Quickened Fireball and a normal Fireball can cast both in a round, but a wizard with two Quickened Fireballs can cast only one.
runestar 12-07-05, 10:21 PM	Wasn't there talk of using a move-action to cast a quickened spell? Thus, you would still have your standard action to cast a normal spell. :)
farfairer 12-07-05, 11:44 PM	Wasn't there talk of using a move-action to cast a quickened spell? Thus, you would still have your standard action to cast a normal spell. :) There was, and it was rejected. A move action is a type of action not an action speed. Technically a swift action is also a type of action not an action speed (swift actions take a free action to use), but for discussion its easier to talk in termes of Swift actions and standard actions. Did you follow all of that?
runestar 12-08-05, 12:56 AM	Yeah, its all beginning to seep into my think skull, slowly but surely. :embarrass
Hanniball 12-08-05, 01:18 AM	Well, perhaps the RAW will help it sink in a little quicker. Complete Arcane's sidebar on Swift Actions specifically states that you can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. It then goes on to say that you can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed a free action. So determining whether or not one is entitled to take a free action with her standard action will be the OP's answer according to the RAW. Putting all assumptions aside as to what sounds right, I looked to the Phb. Unfortunately, the Phb states that the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free/as a free action. Thus, it is entirely up to the particular DM whether or not this is possible. This isn't mearly me stating the exsistance of Rule 0, but a situation that requires a necessary application of it Either way...just my 0.02 cp :)
farfairer 12-08-05, 01:20 AM	Yeah, its all beginning to seep into my think skull, slowly but surely. :embarrass Good, because I wasn't sure I understood it all. :D
farfairer 12-08-05, 01:28 AM	Well, perhaps the RAW will help it sink in a little quicker. Complete Arcane's sidebar on Swift Actions specifically states that you can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. It then goes on to say that you can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed a free action. So determining whether or not one is entitled to take a free action with her standard action will be the OP's answer according to the RAW. Putting all assumptions aside as to what sounds right, I looked to the Phb. Unfortunately, the Phb states that the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free/as a free action. Thus, it is entirely up to the particular DM whether or not this is possible. This isn't mearly me stating the exsistance of Rule 0, but a situation that requires a necessary application of it Either way...just my 0.02 cp :) That doesn't quite solve the problem. A swift spell takes a free action to cast. You can only perform one swift action per turn. So the ambiguous limit to free actions in a turn is irrelevent to the equasion. The question is: Can you cast a spell that has casting time 1 swift action as as a standard action? Better yet, can you volentarily increase the amount of time it takes to cast a spell? Can you take 1 minute to cast a spell that has casting time 1 standard action? Does this work the same for feats and abilities? If you voluntarily increast the casting time (or activation time) of a swift spell (or swift ability) does it provoke an attack of oportunity?
Hanniball 12-08-05, 01:54 AM	The question is: Can you cast a spell that has casting time 1 swift action as as a standard action? What a character is allowed to do as a standard action is directly related to when a character is allowed to take a free action and thus, a swift action (which is entirely up to the DM) It sound related to me, but I get caught up in symantecs quite easily at times. Better yet, can you volentarily increase the amount of time it takes to cast a spell? Can you take 1 minute to cast a spell that has casting time 1 standard action? All the Phb says about casting time is: Casting Time Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell. A spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. Because it says absolutely nothing about voluntarily increasing the casting time and certain feats are required for you to add material components (Primitive Caster maybe? The name escapes me...anyone?) I would so no. I don't see any reason that it would cause any balance issues, but I also fail to see how ruling no would be considered an unfair limitation. Again, just my0.02 cp
farfairer 12-08-05, 02:09 AM	Because it says absolutely nothing about voluntarily increasing the casting time and certain feats are required for you to add material components (Primitive Caster maybe? The name escapes me...anyone?) I would so no. I don't see any reason that it would cause any balance issues, but I also fail to see how ruling no would be considered an unfair limitation. Again, just my0.02 cp the reason I feel it could be unfair, is because I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able (as your entire action in a round) cast swift fly, move 60 feet, and then cast force wave. Because both spells are swift, your ruling would be no. However I can still cast swift fly, move 60 feet, and then cast Ice Storm. Plus the feats that allow you to add material components to a spell grant an ability along with that material component. Priomitive caster gives you +1 caster level for each component not normally required by the spell that you add. What I am (effectivly) asking is can I choose to cast a swift or immediate spell as a standard action, and take all of the disadvantages there in. It doesn't allow me to cast any extra spells.