Can you counterspell a spell-like ability? What about a device? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you counterspell a spell-like ability? What about a device? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PeggeyandScott
01-29-05, 01:24 PM I've never seen this addressed in the PHB or DMG, and I cannot find it on the boards with the search function down.

Say, for example, you are fighting an ogre magi. We all know that at some point, he is going to throw his cone of cold (which is a spell-like ability, but is exactly like the 5th level spell). Can your counterspell it?

What if someone is casting from a device (wand, scroll, staff, ring, etc)? One time my party got ambushed by some bandits with a low level wizard in their group. The problem is, he had a wand of maximized fireball (actually a wand of fireball and a rod of lesser maximize spell combined into one item, but go with it). We were only about 7th level, and 30 hp fireballs were wearing the party down REAL fast. Could my sorcerer (who knew fireball) have countered the fireballs coming from the wand?
Seeker95
01-29-05, 02:00 PM Edit: [Meta said it more accurately and better.]
Meta_FR_DM
01-29-05, 03:10 PM From the Monster Manual v3.5, page 315, under Special Abilities: Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities cannot be used to coutnerspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

It's silly that this information cannot also be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide. But oh well.

As for counterspelling items: Also not possible. By deffinition, counterspells work only against other spells that are being cast --see the Player's Handbook for more details.

Now, were this to come up in my campaign I might allow a character to counterspell an item effect, provided he new where the effect was coming from and had the proper spell ready.

I don't think I'd ever allow counterspelling spell-like abilities.
PeggeyandScott
01-29-05, 10:39 PM Thanks, I never thought to look in the MM.

Re. your opinion on counterspelling from an item...in that specific case, we knew exactly what was coming, who it was coming from, where he was, and we even knew the command word for his wand.

He had already hit us with 2 maximized fireballs in the first two rounds. We spotted him doing it, and one person even made a rediculous listen check and overheard the command word. At that point, we knew we were going to get a maximized fireball every round until either he died or we did.

My sorcerer was torn between trying to kill him on my next turn (we did not know what level he was, so I was not sure any of my spells would kill him in one shot) or trying to counterspell the wand to save the rest of the party. In the end, I got lucky and another character killed the enemy wizard before my turn came around.

But I was still left wondering if a counterspell would have worked. I'm not sure the DM would have known either.
Meta_FR_DM
01-30-05, 02:53 AM Well, the rules are what they are.

As long as your DM is comfortable with his players being able to do it, and you as players don't mind the fact that your DM could conceivably do it to your characters, I guess it's not a problem.

Just watch out for when the NPC Wizard has a wand of Fireballs and the PC Wizard has one too. ;)

But seriously, if a group of players busted their butts figuring out where the effect was coming from --to the point where they learned the command word-- and they didn't have any other reasonable means of countering the effect (say a readied action to shoot an arrow at the caster, or maybe use a targeted Dispel Magic against the Wand itself) and they seemed like the type to not hang me by my own on the spot rulings, then yes, I'd allow an attempt to Counterspell the Wand Wielder.

And no, I wouldn't let the Counterspell be automatic. I'd call for a Spellcraft Check on the part of the caster to see if he is able to attune his spell precisely (by means of the overheard command word) so that he may snuff out the Wand's effect.

One last thing: Don't think about enemy NPCs in terms of levels! If your DM is doing his job you've got a fair chance at taking out enemy spellcasters, regardless of their level relative to yours. Besides, in my experience it takes away from the suspension of disbelief and good roleplaying.

Regardless it sounds like you and your friends are solid players and on the right track.

Good gaming to you all.
Loren Pechtel
01-30-05, 11:51 PM Spell-like ability: There's no way to counterspell it because you have no way of knowing it's coming until it's too late.

Item: I would have no problem with counterspelling an item. However, you have nothing to go on, the spellcraft roll is impossible. You'll need to know what the item throws. Call it wrong and the counterspell is spent for no effect unless you used a dispel magic.
The Simbul
01-31-05, 02:07 AM You can attempt to counterspell a spell-like ability with Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, since one does not need to know what spell is being cast before hand in order to counter it with such spells. The "uncounterability" status of spell-like abilities is based off the fact that they have no components, thus they cannot be traditionally countered (the same goes for componentless spells, such as those enhanced with metamagic). Since Dispel Magic effects can potentially counter anything, you can use them to counter spell-like abilities. The concentration needed to cast a spell/use a SLA is unmistakable, so you can ready an action for such an event, although you must still win the caster level check to do so.

A targeted Dispel Magic on a magic item supresses it for 1d4 rounds. Given that most magic items are crafted at the lowest possible caster level, I dont see much of a problem in terms of opposed caster level checks when using this tactic.
Meta_FR_DM
01-31-05, 03:37 AM This may seem hypocritical since I’m the one who complains about people picking nits with me, but oh well.

From the System Reference Document, Spells D-E, Dispell Magic: Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Now that’s the official viewpoint. But like I said above if a DM and his/her players are on the same page there’s nothing wrong with loosening up the rules a bit.

Simbul, I beg you from down on my knees not to blast me to bits or send me screaming by means of your magic to whatever nether-realm the Nilshai come from! Pretty please?! :weep:
Seeker95
01-31-05, 09:22 AM Meta_DM, I do not find that to be a nitpick. It is a piece of information that makes answering the original question much easier:

Question: Can you counterspell a spell-like ability?
Answer: No.

Question: Can you counterspell a spell from an item?
Answer: It is up to the DM.
Loren Pechtel
02-01-05, 12:43 AM You can attempt to counterspell a spell-like ability with Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, since one does not need to know what spell is being cast before hand in order to counter it with such spells. The "uncounterability" status of spell-like abilities is based off the fact that they have no components, thus they cannot be traditionally countered (the same goes for componentless spells, such as those enhanced with metamagic). Since Dispel Magic effects can potentially counter anything, you can use them to counter spell-like abilities. The concentration needed to cast a spell/use a SLA is unmistakable, so you can ready an action for such an event, although you must still win the caster level check to do so.

It's unmistakable that the target is doing something of the sort, but does that mean that the observer knows exactly when well enough to counterspell??

(Note that the same problem applies to a stilled/silent spell.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PeggeyandScott 01-29-05, 01:24 PM	I've never seen this addressed in the PHB or DMG, and I cannot find it on the boards with the search function down. Say, for example, you are fighting an ogre magi. We all know that at some point, he is going to throw his cone of cold (which is a spell-like ability, but is exactly like the 5th level spell). Can your counterspell it? What if someone is casting from a device (wand, scroll, staff, ring, etc)? One time my party got ambushed by some bandits with a low level wizard in their group. The problem is, he had a wand of maximized fireball (actually a wand of fireball and a rod of lesser maximize spell combined into one item, but go with it). We were only about 7th level, and 30 hp fireballs were wearing the party down REAL fast. Could my sorcerer (who knew fireball) have countered the fireballs coming from the wand?
Seeker95 01-29-05, 02:00 PM	Edit: [Meta said it more accurately and better.]
Meta_FR_DM 01-29-05, 03:10 PM	From the Monster Manual v3.5, page 315, under Special Abilities: Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities cannot be used to coutnerspell, nor can they be counterspelled. It's silly that this information cannot also be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide. But oh well. As for counterspelling items: Also not possible. By deffinition, counterspells work only against other spells that are being cast --see the Player's Handbook for more details. Now, were this to come up in my campaign I might allow a character to counterspell an item effect, provided he new where the effect was coming from and had the proper spell ready. I don't think I'd ever allow counterspelling spell-like abilities.
PeggeyandScott 01-29-05, 10:39 PM	Thanks, I never thought to look in the MM. Re. your opinion on counterspelling from an item...in that specific case, we knew exactly what was coming, who it was coming from, where he was, and we even knew the command word for his wand. He had already hit us with 2 maximized fireballs in the first two rounds. We spotted him doing it, and one person even made a rediculous listen check and overheard the command word. At that point, we knew we were going to get a maximized fireball every round until either he died or we did. My sorcerer was torn between trying to kill him on my next turn (we did not know what level he was, so I was not sure any of my spells would kill him in one shot) or trying to counterspell the wand to save the rest of the party. In the end, I got lucky and another character killed the enemy wizard before my turn came around. But I was still left wondering if a counterspell would have worked. I'm not sure the DM would have known either.
Meta_FR_DM 01-30-05, 02:53 AM	Well, the rules are what they are. As long as your DM is comfortable with his players being able to do it, and you as players don't mind the fact that your DM could conceivably do it to your characters, I guess it's not a problem. Just watch out for when the NPC Wizard has a wand of Fireballs and the PC Wizard has one too. ;) But seriously, if a group of players busted their butts figuring out where the effect was coming from --to the point where they learned the command word-- and they didn't have any other reasonable means of countering the effect (say a readied action to shoot an arrow at the caster, or maybe use a targeted Dispel Magic against the Wand itself) and they seemed like the type to not hang me by my own on the spot rulings, then yes, I'd allow an attempt to Counterspell the Wand Wielder. And no, I wouldn't let the Counterspell be automatic. I'd call for a Spellcraft Check on the part of the caster to see if he is able to attune his spell precisely (by means of the overheard command word) so that he may snuff out the Wand's effect. One last thing: Don't think about enemy NPCs in terms of levels! If your DM is doing his job you've got a fair chance at taking out enemy spellcasters, regardless of their level relative to yours. Besides, in my experience it takes away from the suspension of disbelief and good roleplaying. Regardless it sounds like you and your friends are solid players and on the right track. Good gaming to you all.
Loren Pechtel 01-30-05, 11:51 PM	Spell-like ability: There's no way to counterspell it because you have no way of knowing it's coming until it's too late. Item: I would have no problem with counterspelling an item. However, you have nothing to go on, the spellcraft roll is impossible. You'll need to know what the item throws. Call it wrong and the counterspell is spent for no effect unless you used a dispel magic.
The Simbul 01-31-05, 02:07 AM	You can attempt to counterspell a spell-like ability with Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, since one does not need to know what spell is being cast before hand in order to counter it with such spells. The "uncounterability" status of spell-like abilities is based off the fact that they have no components, thus they cannot be traditionally countered (the same goes for componentless spells, such as those enhanced with metamagic). Since Dispel Magic effects can potentially counter anything, you can use them to counter spell-like abilities. The concentration needed to cast a spell/use a SLA is unmistakable, so you can ready an action for such an event, although you must still win the caster level check to do so. A targeted Dispel Magic on a magic item supresses it for 1d4 rounds. Given that most magic items are crafted at the lowest possible caster level, I dont see much of a problem in terms of opposed caster level checks when using this tactic.
Meta_FR_DM 01-31-05, 03:37 AM	This may seem hypocritical since I’m the one who complains about people picking nits with me, but oh well. From the System Reference Document, Spells D-E, Dispell Magic: Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. Now that’s the official viewpoint. But like I said above if a DM and his/her players are on the same page there’s nothing wrong with loosening up the rules a bit. Simbul, I beg you from down on my knees not to blast me to bits or send me screaming by means of your magic to whatever nether-realm the Nilshai come from! Pretty please?! :weep:
Seeker95 01-31-05, 09:22 AM	Meta_DM, I do not find that to be a nitpick. It is a piece of information that makes answering the original question much easier: Question: Can you counterspell a spell-like ability? Answer: No. Question: Can you counterspell a spell from an item? Answer: It is up to the DM.
Loren Pechtel 02-01-05, 12:43 AM	You can attempt to counterspell a spell-like ability with Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic, since one does not need to know what spell is being cast before hand in order to counter it with such spells. The "uncounterability" status of spell-like abilities is based off the fact that they have no components, thus they cannot be traditionally countered (the same goes for componentless spells, such as those enhanced with metamagic). Since Dispel Magic effects can potentially counter anything, you can use them to counter spell-like abilities. The concentration needed to cast a spell/use a SLA is unmistakable, so you can ready an action for such an event, although you must still win the caster level check to do so. It's unmistakable that the target is doing something of the sort, but does that mean that the observer knows exactly when well enough to counterspell?? (Note that the same problem applies to a stilled/silent spell.)