Can you make this item? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you make this item? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Outlier
08-07-05, 11:27 PM A player had an idea for a pretty neat weapon for a runesmith; a dwarven war axe enchanted with the Whirling Blade spell. Now he has a character with Craft Wondrous Item and Create Magic Arms and Armor, so it seems like he's got the bases covered, but under the rules, can it be done?
Sildatorak
08-08-05, 01:19 AM Is Whirling Blade the one where you chuck your weapon and it makes an attack on everyone in a line then returns to you? If so, I would recommend making it a specific weapon that is a +1 throwing returning dwarven waraxe that can be thrown per Whirling Blade X times per day. I'd price it at 330+18000+(caster level*spell level*2000) and multiply it by X/5 if it is usable 4 or fewer times per day.
Seeker95
08-08-05, 11:03 AM I'm in agreement with Sildatorak with one exception. I would only allow it to be made at 3x per day. I despise the "limited number of use" rules that allow a player to pick the exact number of uses s/he can afford or possibly need. I only allow unlimited use, 3x and 1x for magic items.
Outlier
08-08-05, 11:17 AM Yeah, that's the spell. You you'd say yes, you can put Wondrous Item enchantments on weapons? Do you have a reference for that in the rules somewhere by chance?

With regard to the pricing, I'm not sure where you get the need to make the axe +3. The axe in question is not magical - he just wants to get more frequent use of his Whirling Blade spell, and enchanting the axe seemed more flavorful than making a magic glove or wand or whatever.
tarkin
08-08-05, 11:39 AM I always hate the attempt to use the wonderous magic item pricing system for weapons. Weapons in the core books are mostly +x abilitiesl, with the sole exceptions of the "specific weapons" and intelligent weapons.

Why? Because such enchantments have an EXPONENTIAL power on the blade, and by pricing it as +x,000 gp you are ignoring that and pricing it incredibally badly.

Consider a weapon that Dispells a creature 1/day, it might be worth 6,000 gp. Similarly a weapon that applys applies a curse of -2 might also be worth +6,000 gp. But a weapon that does BOTH simultaneously is not worth +12,000 gp cause it saves you an action.

A wizard would need two action to do this. Weapons solve this problem by using an exponetial pricing method: + x, NOT +x,000 gp/

I would allow it as either a +1 enchantment for 1/day, +2 enchantment 3/day.

This would account for the fact that you can make the blade a Whirling Flaming Blade fairly.
Seeker95
08-08-05, 12:03 PM While I do not disagree with Sildatorak (I am not changing my mind), I am also in agreement with tarkin here. I can appreciate either approach, and find merits in each. I am more inclined to use Sildatorak's method when pricing weapon abilities that are not "always on". But tarkin's suggestion of +1 for 1/day and +2 for 3/day is reasonable. I just wouldn't ever consider buying / crafting such a weapon because the benefit of the limited use ability is not equal to what can be gained on every attack by using a different +1 or +2 equivalent enhancement. Why pay the same amount for getting this ability once per day that you would pay to get +1d6 [energy type] on every attack?
DisposableHero_
08-08-05, 12:07 PM Note the exit wound weapon enhancement in complete warrior produces and effect similar to the line effect of whirling blade.

I'm fairly certain a +1 Throwing Returning Exit Wound Weapon covers all the bases you are looking for (with the possible exception of the range, I don't have my books present to verify that)
DrMorganes
08-08-05, 12:17 PM Runesmith...

That's the one from Races of Stone, right? I'll do a quick refresher later tonight, but if memory serves that the PrC that can basically scribe a rune onto anything - in essence making nearly any object into a single-spell scroll.

If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think there's anything wrong with etching the rune into his axe for a one-shot of Whirling Blade. Double-check the class description to see if the object is destroyed after the spell takes effect, or if there's some spell level limit to the runes that can be scribed.

If you were looking at a permanent enchantment, THEN we're talking some serious cash as indicated by Sildatorak's cost estimate.
DrMorganes
08-08-05, 12:20 PM Why pay the same amount for getting this ability once per day that you would pay to get +1d6 [energy type] on every attack? Because you have to close to melee range for that extra energy damage. The proposed Whirling Blade enchantment would allow the caster - who essentially remains a wizard, remember - to attack a line of foes from a distance. Perhaps not the best option from a character optimization standpoint, but I like it for roleplaying flavor.
Outlier
08-08-05, 12:55 PM While I do see your point, Tarkin, I'm not sure I agree. Adding a second 6000gp enchantment to an existing 6000gp enchanted item costs 50% more, for a total 18,000gp, not 12,000gp. Which doesn't invalidate your argument, really, just moves it to the 3rd enchantment. It's also not obvious from the guidelines that you get both effects from a single action -- looks like you'd have your choice of effects instead, for that price.

The problem seems to be with the DMG's different pricing for different types of items. A wand of Whirling Blade (4500gp) or a gauntlet of unlimited whirling blade (12,000gp per guidelines) would let the guy throw any weapon he finds, and would be quite a bit more effective for this character due to the details of the spell (he's a wizard, and has no desire to have to physically throw his weapon). Comparing this item to, say, a wand or item casting other 2nd level direct damage spells it seems OK, though it would improve as he finds better weapons to throw. To get a similar effect by using weapon enchantments would seem to be considerably more expensive, if DisposableHero_ is correct, even though the effect would be limited to the single weapon enchanted and be much less effective than the spell for this character.

So, do you let players exploit arbitrage opportunities like this as an excersize in good strategy, or do you consider it munchkinism?
Seeker95
08-08-05, 01:13 PM So, do you let players exploit arbitrage opportunities like this as an excersize in good strategy, or do you consider it munchkinism?Definitely the latter.
I am confident that my view will be one with which tarkin agrees, but will not presume to speak for him.

Players are a selfish and power-hungry lot. Given two methods of accomplishing anything, the method that favors the PC is probably the one you-as-DM do not want to choose.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Outlier 08-07-05, 11:27 PM	A player had an idea for a pretty neat weapon for a runesmith; a dwarven war axe enchanted with the Whirling Blade spell. Now he has a character with Craft Wondrous Item and Create Magic Arms and Armor, so it seems like he's got the bases covered, but under the rules, can it be done?
Sildatorak 08-08-05, 01:19 AM	Is Whirling Blade the one where you chuck your weapon and it makes an attack on everyone in a line then returns to you? If so, I would recommend making it a specific weapon that is a +1 throwing returning dwarven waraxe that can be thrown per Whirling Blade X times per day. I'd price it at 330+18000+(caster levelspell level2000) and multiply it by X/5 if it is usable 4 or fewer times per day.
Seeker95 08-08-05, 11:03 AM	I'm in agreement with Sildatorak with one exception. I would only allow it to be made at 3x per day. I despise the "limited number of use" rules that allow a player to pick the exact number of uses s/he can afford or possibly need. I only allow unlimited use, 3x and 1x for magic items.
Outlier 08-08-05, 11:17 AM	Yeah, that's the spell. You you'd say yes, you can put Wondrous Item enchantments on weapons? Do you have a reference for that in the rules somewhere by chance? With regard to the pricing, I'm not sure where you get the need to make the axe +3. The axe in question is not magical - he just wants to get more frequent use of his Whirling Blade spell, and enchanting the axe seemed more flavorful than making a magic glove or wand or whatever.
tarkin 08-08-05, 11:39 AM	I always hate the attempt to use the wonderous magic item pricing system for weapons. Weapons in the core books are mostly +x abilitiesl, with the sole exceptions of the "specific weapons" and intelligent weapons. Why? Because such enchantments have an EXPONENTIAL power on the blade, and by pricing it as +x,000 gp you are ignoring that and pricing it incredibally badly. Consider a weapon that Dispells a creature 1/day, it might be worth 6,000 gp. Similarly a weapon that applys applies a curse of -2 might also be worth +6,000 gp. But a weapon that does BOTH simultaneously is not worth +12,000 gp cause it saves you an action. A wizard would need two action to do this. Weapons solve this problem by using an exponetial pricing method: + x, NOT +x,000 gp/ I would allow it as either a +1 enchantment for 1/day, +2 enchantment 3/day. This would account for the fact that you can make the blade a Whirling Flaming Blade fairly.
Seeker95 08-08-05, 12:03 PM	While I do not disagree with Sildatorak (I am not changing my mind), I am also in agreement with tarkin here. I can appreciate either approach, and find merits in each. I am more inclined to use Sildatorak's method when pricing weapon abilities that are not "always on". But tarkin's suggestion of +1 for 1/day and +2 for 3/day is reasonable. I just wouldn't ever consider buying / crafting such a weapon because the benefit of the limited use ability is not equal to what can be gained on every attack by using a different +1 or +2 equivalent enhancement. Why pay the same amount for getting this ability once per day that you would pay to get +1d6 [energy type] on every attack?
DisposableHero_ 08-08-05, 12:07 PM	Note the exit wound weapon enhancement in complete warrior produces and effect similar to the line effect of whirling blade. I'm fairly certain a +1 Throwing Returning Exit Wound Weapon covers all the bases you are looking for (with the possible exception of the range, I don't have my books present to verify that)
DrMorganes 08-08-05, 12:17 PM	Runesmith... That's the one from Races of Stone, right? I'll do a quick refresher later tonight, but if memory serves that the PrC that can basically scribe a rune onto anything - in essence making nearly any object into a single-spell scroll. If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think there's anything wrong with etching the rune into his axe for a one-shot of Whirling Blade. Double-check the class description to see if the object is destroyed after the spell takes effect, or if there's some spell level limit to the runes that can be scribed. If you were looking at a permanent enchantment, THEN we're talking some serious cash as indicated by Sildatorak's cost estimate.
DrMorganes 08-08-05, 12:20 PM	Why pay the same amount for getting this ability once per day that you would pay to get +1d6 [energy type] on every attack? Because you have to close to melee range for that extra energy damage. The proposed Whirling Blade enchantment would allow the caster - who essentially remains a wizard, remember - to attack a line of foes from a distance. Perhaps not the best option from a character optimization standpoint, but I like it for roleplaying flavor.
Outlier 08-08-05, 12:55 PM	While I do see your point, Tarkin, I'm not sure I agree. Adding a second 6000gp enchantment to an existing 6000gp enchanted item costs 50% more, for a total 18,000gp, not 12,000gp. Which doesn't invalidate your argument, really, just moves it to the 3rd enchantment. It's also not obvious from the guidelines that you get both effects from a single action -- looks like you'd have your choice of effects instead, for that price. The problem seems to be with the DMG's different pricing for different types of items. A wand of Whirling Blade (4500gp) or a gauntlet of unlimited whirling blade (12,000gp per guidelines) would let the guy throw any weapon he finds, and would be quite a bit more effective for this character due to the details of the spell (he's a wizard, and has no desire to have to physically throw his weapon). Comparing this item to, say, a wand or item casting other 2nd level direct damage spells it seems OK, though it would improve as he finds better weapons to throw. To get a similar effect by using weapon enchantments would seem to be considerably more expensive, if DisposableHero_ is correct, even though the effect would be limited to the single weapon enchanted and be much less effective than the spell for this character. So, do you let players exploit arbitrage opportunities like this as an excersize in good strategy, or do you consider it munchkinism?
Seeker95 08-08-05, 01:13 PM	So, do you let players exploit arbitrage opportunities like this as an excersize in good strategy, or do you consider it munchkinism?Definitely the latter. I am confident that my view will be one with which tarkin agrees, but will not presume to speak for him. Players are a selfish and power-hungry lot. Given two methods of accomplishing anything, the method that favors the PC is probably the one you-as-DM do not want to choose.