Can you maximize/empower the Awaken spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you maximize/empower the Awaken spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BarbeChenue
10-20-06, 02:09 PM Can you maximize/empower the Awaken spell?

It gives a random amount of Intelligence (3d6) and a random bonus to Charisma (1d3).

Could you intensify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) it, as per the epic feat? Giving twice the maximized amount: 36? (3*6 = 18; 18*2 = 36).

Thanks in advance!

Note: I'm aware of the metamagic costs, this is merely for the purpose of an Epic NPC and his army of Awakened creatures.
tarkin
10-20-06, 03:54 PM Strict/Loose game: No. The scores are indirect values, just as the hitpoints, damage etc. of summoned creatures.

Power/Anything Goes Game: Yes.
User5127
10-20-06, 04:35 PM well maximise says it does the max of what ever variables a spell would give. normally this is damage. but a maxed timestop is 5 rounds. and awaken says that it gives the creature a score of 3d6. so it would be maxed.

so yea. it works. but a creature with say 36 INT would be very smart indeed, beware it doesn't get any ideas in its head... :P
runestar
10-20-06, 10:49 PM Yes apprently...it is a variable effect and thus could be maximised/empowered or intensified.

Animals suddenly becoming smarter than elminster...:P
Damned slayer
10-21-06, 01:08 AM See the note in the spell that the creature CANNOT have more intel than its living conterpart:)
usefull on dragons but otherwise??
Deathmond
10-21-06, 01:19 AM See the note in the spell that the creature CANNOT have more intel than its living conterpart:)
usefull on dragons but otherwise??

Awaken
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF, XP
Casting Time: 24 hours
Range: Touch
Target: Animal or tree touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost: 250 XP.

Am I reading something wrong? I can't find that in the spell anywhere.
Subedei
10-21-06, 02:13 AM Maximize maximizes all variable numeric effects of the spell. A summoned monster spell summons a create that may or may not have variable HP, the spell itself is not variable unless it's summoning a variable amount of creatures, for instance.

In Awaken's case the new Int score IS a variable numeric effect of the spell, I'd really love to hear you argue that it isn't. As far as I can tell your opinion has absolutely no support within the written rules. If it does, I at least have never heard of it.

As a DM, though, I would definitely not allow a player to do this due to balance concerns, justifying it with magic being unpredictable and some kind of dangerous reaction within the spell that shorts it out when attempting to maximize or something like that.
Knight0
10-21-06, 04:30 AM its not that over powered to either empower or maximise an awaken spell:

Empower will give 4-27 INT (16)
Maximize will give 18 INT

To Empower and maximize you need to be 21st level and having a pet with a 27 INT at epic levels isn't anything special.
runestar
10-21-06, 05:32 AM To Empower and maximize you need to be 21st level and having a pet with a 27 INT at epic levels isn't anything special.
A druid with the sudden maximise and sudden empower feats?:P Or metamagic rods?
User5127
10-21-06, 10:00 AM but still. its a plant, would be treated as an NPC, has an XP cost (BIG part there),

nothing in it is rather broken. so what if i can create a tree with 18 INT? or even 36?
so you created an Uber Ent. congrats! your PC doesn't control it. and you burned 250xp for it. can't use it for a familiar, special mount, animal companion, etc...

so yay! for doing nothing special.
all you really did was create an NPC for the DM to play out. now the DM has plot hooks and what not.

The spell never said that the animal/tree in question would be friendly towards you. It could very well be CE in alignment and go on a killing spree. HEY guess who is right next to it when it wakes up?

broken? no.
fun DM plot hooks? yes.
runestar
10-21-06, 10:07 AM The spell never said that the animal/tree in question would be friendly towards you.
Actually, it does, going by the copy of the awaken spell desc so graciously provided by Deathmond.:)
but still. its a plant, would be treated as an NPC, has an XP cost (BIG part there),
250 xp is peanuts when you are lv9...
so you created an Uber Ent. congrats! your PC doesn't control it. and you burned 250xp for it. can't use it for a familiar, special mount, animal companion, etc...
No, but for the benefits the spell provides, it's close enough...
although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
User5127
10-21-06, 10:37 AM "The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it."

its not a special connection. its no different than the creature having an initial attidude of either friendly or helpful. nothing says it will stay that way. I should have been more clear and said that it wouldn't always be friendly forever and ever. its a creature with its own thoughts and ideas now. its own agenda. its still happy you "awakened" it. but that could change in the future.

and 250xp every once in a while? yes sure. now try the greedy person who wants the whole forest? good luck.

on top of that. if you want to burn 250xp on something thats basically an animated construct with a personality now, sure go right ahead. make it have a 36 INT. sure. you'd have to be epic to stack that many feats. but why not. the creature wouldn't be able to keep up with you at epic levels. and since its an NPC and not bound to fight for you, if its threatened it may save its own skin...

its not broken, not even to stack those metamagic feats on it. Its just something that you may not do every day. how many times in game will you need to have that 36 INT tree? assuming later in the game its still got that helpfull attidtude towards you. broken, no. useful at times. yes.
Damned slayer
10-21-06, 07:42 PM Awaken

Am I reading something wrong? I can't find that in the spell anywhere.

I had awaken undead in mind
runestar
10-21-06, 10:42 PM its not broken, not even to stack those metamagic feats on it. Its just something that you may not do every day. how many times in game will you need to have that 36 INT tree? assuming later in the game its still got that helpfull attidtude towards you. broken, no. useful at times. yes.
You obviously missed my post on using sudden empower/maximise feats...:P

Plus, no one ever said anything about awakening the entire forest and every animal in it, at least not at one go. You suddenly come in and rant about the impracticality of doing so, even though no one was even entertaining such an idea.:confused:

Plus, I don't see anyone complaining about it being broken. They were balking at the notion of a 36int tree perhaps, but no outright condemnation...

Is there some point you are trying to prove? Because if there is, it is lost, at least on me.:)
Shaggy_Shaggs
10-21-06, 10:58 PM Mmmmmm, base Int 18/Wis 18 dwarf pine sapling wizard/druid/mystic theurge/arcane heirophant cohort...:plotting:
User5127
10-21-06, 11:19 PM You obviously missed my post on using sudden empower/maximise feats...:P

Plus, no one ever said anything about awakening the entire forest and every animal in it, at least not at one go. You suddenly come in and rant about the impracticality of doing so, even though no one was even entertaining such an idea.:confused:

Plus, I don't see anyone complaining about it being broken. They were balking at the notion of a 36int tree perhaps, but no outright condemnation...

Is there some point you are trying to prove? Because if there is, it is lost, at least on me.:)

and your the one that said the xp burn would be peanuts. i didn't disagree. i just said that its there and unless you could figure a way to circumvent it then its to much of a waste to bother making a 36 INT tree... even if it is 250xp...

and you even quoted my statement of me saying it wasn't broken. and my saying that it's very useful, but only at certain times. so mabye I'm the one failing to see the point you are trying to make by pointing out something I said when i already have the answers to your questions IN that quote.

as well. i don't recall SUDDENLY showing up and ranting. I think i'm third to post here saying that the idea does work? hmm.. looks about right to me! ^_^

Its obvious some one would have thought about some how awakening a forest (in fact I can come up with a few ways and probably still save that burned xp) I even said that one times uses here and there can be usefull. but a large scale its not. i never did a rant. it was one sentance. its more like.. a statement. if anything i was stating the obvious.

I just thought i'd mention that the spell can be impractical on a large scale and that was my point. i thought it was rather obvious... i mean, i'm sure an awakend tree would have figured that point out. :P

but yep. thats all.
Yamu
10-22-06, 02:52 AM Step 1: Innocuously convince your DM to house-rule in the 3.0 version of Reincarnate, "because it's just so gosh-darned wacky and fun!"

Step 2: KILL ALL YOUR FRIENDS. Uh, except the Druid.

Step 3: Dead friends? No! More pets. Reincarnates for everyone!

Step 4: Awaken! Awaken! Awaken! The Druid eats it a bit on this one, but it's all for the greater good. Observe:

Meet Torgo. Torgo is a +10 Str, +8 Dex,+8 Con sentient common-speaking Wolverine PC with the same mental stats he had as a human enhanced by no less than 18 extra Int and 3 extra Cha, and all at a +0 ECL. He's no Pun-Pun, but I think he'll scrape by.

Especially once he starts pumping SP into Use Magic Device.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BarbeChenue 10-20-06, 02:09 PM	Can you maximize/empower the Awaken spell? It gives a random amount of Intelligence (3d6) and a random bonus to Charisma (1d3). Could you intensify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell) it, as per the epic feat? Giving twice the maximized amount: 36? (36 = 18; 182 = 36). Thanks in advance! Note: I'm aware of the metamagic costs, this is merely for the purpose of an Epic NPC and his army of Awakened creatures.
tarkin 10-20-06, 03:54 PM	Strict/Loose game: No. The scores are indirect values, just as the hitpoints, damage etc. of summoned creatures. Power/Anything Goes Game: Yes.
User5127 10-20-06, 04:35 PM	well maximise says it does the max of what ever variables a spell would give. normally this is damage. but a maxed timestop is 5 rounds. and awaken says that it gives the creature a score of 3d6. so it would be maxed. so yea. it works. but a creature with say 36 INT would be very smart indeed, beware it doesn't get any ideas in its head... :P
runestar 10-20-06, 10:49 PM	Yes apprently...it is a variable effect and thus could be maximised/empowered or intensified. Animals suddenly becoming smarter than elminster...:P
Damned slayer 10-21-06, 01:08 AM	See the note in the spell that the creature CANNOT have more intel than its living conterpart:) usefull on dragons but otherwise??
Deathmond 10-21-06, 01:19 AM	See the note in the spell that the creature CANNOT have more intel than its living conterpart:) usefull on dragons but otherwise?? Awaken Transmutation Level: Drd 5 Components: V, S, DF, XP Casting Time: 24 hours Range: Touch Target: Animal or tree touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). XP Cost: 250 XP. Am I reading something wrong? I can't find that in the spell anywhere.
Subedei 10-21-06, 02:13 AM	Maximize maximizes all variable numeric effects of the spell. A summoned monster spell summons a create that may or may not have variable HP, the spell itself is not variable unless it's summoning a variable amount of creatures, for instance. In Awaken's case the new Int score IS a variable numeric effect of the spell, I'd really love to hear you argue that it isn't. As far as I can tell your opinion has absolutely no support within the written rules. If it does, I at least have never heard of it. As a DM, though, I would definitely not allow a player to do this due to balance concerns, justifying it with magic being unpredictable and some kind of dangerous reaction within the spell that shorts it out when attempting to maximize or something like that.
Knight0 10-21-06, 04:30 AM	its not that over powered to either empower or maximise an awaken spell: Empower will give 4-27 INT (16) Maximize will give 18 INT To Empower and maximize you need to be 21st level and having a pet with a 27 INT at epic levels isn't anything special.
runestar 10-21-06, 05:32 AM	To Empower and maximize you need to be 21st level and having a pet with a 27 INT at epic levels isn't anything special. A druid with the sudden maximise and sudden empower feats?:P Or metamagic rods?
User5127 10-21-06, 10:00 AM	but still. its a plant, would be treated as an NPC, has an XP cost (BIG part there), nothing in it is rather broken. so what if i can create a tree with 18 INT? or even 36? so you created an Uber Ent. congrats! your PC doesn't control it. and you burned 250xp for it. can't use it for a familiar, special mount, animal companion, etc... so yay! for doing nothing special. all you really did was create an NPC for the DM to play out. now the DM has plot hooks and what not. The spell never said that the animal/tree in question would be friendly towards you. It could very well be CE in alignment and go on a killing spree. HEY guess who is right next to it when it wakes up? broken? no. fun DM plot hooks? yes.
runestar 10-21-06, 10:07 AM	The spell never said that the animal/tree in question would be friendly towards you. Actually, it does, going by the copy of the awaken spell desc so graciously provided by Deathmond.:) but still. its a plant, would be treated as an NPC, has an XP cost (BIG part there), 250 xp is peanuts when you are lv9... so you created an Uber Ent. congrats! your PC doesn't control it. and you burned 250xp for it. can't use it for a familiar, special mount, animal companion, etc... No, but for the benefits the spell provides, it's close enough... although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
User5127 10-21-06, 10:37 AM	"The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it." its not a special connection. its no different than the creature having an initial attidude of either friendly or helpful. nothing says it will stay that way. I should have been more clear and said that it wouldn't always be friendly forever and ever. its a creature with its own thoughts and ideas now. its own agenda. its still happy you "awakened" it. but that could change in the future. and 250xp every once in a while? yes sure. now try the greedy person who wants the whole forest? good luck. on top of that. if you want to burn 250xp on something thats basically an animated construct with a personality now, sure go right ahead. make it have a 36 INT. sure. you'd have to be epic to stack that many feats. but why not. the creature wouldn't be able to keep up with you at epic levels. and since its an NPC and not bound to fight for you, if its threatened it may save its own skin... its not broken, not even to stack those metamagic feats on it. Its just something that you may not do every day. how many times in game will you need to have that 36 INT tree? assuming later in the game its still got that helpfull attidtude towards you. broken, no. useful at times. yes.
Damned slayer 10-21-06, 07:42 PM	Awaken Am I reading something wrong? I can't find that in the spell anywhere. I had awaken undead in mind
runestar 10-21-06, 10:42 PM	its not broken, not even to stack those metamagic feats on it. Its just something that you may not do every day. how many times in game will you need to have that 36 INT tree? assuming later in the game its still got that helpfull attidtude towards you. broken, no. useful at times. yes. You obviously missed my post on using sudden empower/maximise feats...:P Plus, no one ever said anything about awakening the entire forest and every animal in it, at least not at one go. You suddenly come in and rant about the impracticality of doing so, even though no one was even entertaining such an idea.:confused: Plus, I don't see anyone complaining about it being broken. They were balking at the notion of a 36int tree perhaps, but no outright condemnation... Is there some point you are trying to prove? Because if there is, it is lost, at least on me.:)
Shaggy_Shaggs 10-21-06, 10:58 PM	Mmmmmm, base Int 18/Wis 18 dwarf pine sapling wizard/druid/mystic theurge/arcane heirophant cohort...:plotting:
User5127 10-21-06, 11:19 PM	You obviously missed my post on using sudden empower/maximise feats...:P Plus, no one ever said anything about awakening the entire forest and every animal in it, at least not at one go. You suddenly come in and rant about the impracticality of doing so, even though no one was even entertaining such an idea.:confused: Plus, I don't see anyone complaining about it being broken. They were balking at the notion of a 36int tree perhaps, but no outright condemnation... Is there some point you are trying to prove? Because if there is, it is lost, at least on me.:) and your the one that said the xp burn would be peanuts. i didn't disagree. i just said that its there and unless you could figure a way to circumvent it then its to much of a waste to bother making a 36 INT tree... even if it is 250xp... and you even quoted my statement of me saying it wasn't broken. and my saying that it's very useful, but only at certain times. so mabye I'm the one failing to see the point you are trying to make by pointing out something I said when i already have the answers to your questions IN that quote. as well. i don't recall SUDDENLY showing up and ranting. I think i'm third to post here saying that the idea does work? hmm.. looks about right to me! ^_^ Its obvious some one would have thought about some how awakening a forest (in fact I can come up with a few ways and probably still save that burned xp) I even said that one times uses here and there can be usefull. but a large scale its not. i never did a rant. it was one sentance. its more like.. a statement. if anything i was stating the obvious. I just thought i'd mention that the spell can be impractical on a large scale and that was my point. i thought it was rather obvious... i mean, i'm sure an awakend tree would have figured that point out. :P but yep. thats all.
Yamu 10-22-06, 02:52 AM	Step 1: Innocuously convince your DM to house-rule in the 3.0 version of Reincarnate, "because it's just so gosh-darned wacky and fun!" Step 2: KILL ALL YOUR FRIENDS. Uh, except the Druid. Step 3: Dead friends? No! More pets. Reincarnates for everyone! Step 4: Awaken! Awaken! Awaken! The Druid eats it a bit on this one, but it's all for the greater good. Observe: Meet Torgo. Torgo is a +10 Str, +8 Dex,+8 Con sentient common-speaking Wolverine PC with the same mental stats he had as a human enhanced by no less than 18 extra Int and 3 extra Cha, and all at a +0 ECL. He's no Pun-Pun, but I think he'll scrape by. Especially once he starts pumping SP into Use Magic Device.