Can you modify a magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you modify a magic item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jguggino
10-24-07, 08:42 PM Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to a large shield, can that be done? If so what is the cost and how far can you go with this? Could a +5 two-handed sword be down to a bastard sword? I don’t think I want to go here but I would like to know if there is an answer out there.
Nephlite
10-24-07, 09:02 PM Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to a large shield, can that be done? If so what is the cost and how far can you go with this? Could a +5 two-handed sword be down to a bastard sword? I don’t think I want to go here but I would like to know if there is an answer out there.

Nope. There is no standard way to do that.
Your asking to change not a magic item but a normal item by magic item rules.

Why would you ewant to want to anyway?

A 2 handed sword is not even close to a exotic weapon.
jguggino
10-24-07, 10:22 PM Nope. There is no standard way to do that.
Your asking to change not a magic item but a normal item by magic item rules.

Why would you ewant to want to anyway?

A 2 handed sword is not even close to a exotic weapon.

I am just a DM :) The player is asking to change the Tower shield
Watsyurname529
10-24-07, 10:41 PM What exactly are you trying to do? If you are trying to change mundane items into mundane items (Ex. Tower Shield to Large Shield) then it can not be done. If you are simply asking to remove the item enchantment, then that might be able to be done; it would just take some homebrew ruling. But why would you want to anyway?
jguggino
10-24-07, 10:47 PM Let me reword it

Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done?
Orion959
10-24-07, 10:55 PM My DM allowed for 'limited wish' to be used to allow a variant polymorph of one item into something else. He used the 'polymorph any object' rules to determine duration.

Something like a tower shield to a large shield would be permanent.

Sounds simple enough.
Fireclave
10-24-07, 11:25 PM Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done?
According to the RAW (rules as written), no you cannot. But since you are the DM, you could just invoke Rule 0 and allow your player to do so, and in the case of a tower shield to heavy shield, it's not entirely unreasonable.
groveborn
10-25-07, 06:05 AM In many fantasy settings one smith has turned either a broken weapon into a fixed weapon, or a whole new item with some other thing. Why not reforge the shield? It wouldn't take that much work.

That being said, this could set a precedent that you would rather not. If you change a shield, why not a sword? Or how about a bow? I'd not allow it just to keep sanity, but sure, it could be done.
risner
10-25-07, 08:20 AM Let me reword it

Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done?

Yes, they sell the tower shield for half, and buy the large shield for full.

You (as a DM) could do what I would likely do, sell the large shield for 55% if trading in the tower for half. This would result in being almost free.

In the case of other changes (like turning in a +1 for a +5) I wouldn't deviate from the RAW (which is they sell for half buy for full.)
Merestil Haye
10-25-07, 11:40 AM Yes you can. Find a powerful wizard to Disjoin the tower shield.
Have the tower shield reworked into a large shield by a competent armourer.
Find someone to enchant the shield with whatever powers you wish.That's probably not what your player wants to do, but it can be done.

It's quicker and less expensive to try and find someone to make the exchange.
PhaedrusXY
10-25-07, 02:09 PM Polymorph Any Object could do this in 3.0. They restricted it to not work on magic items in 3.5, unfortunately.
1 ton ghost
10-25-07, 03:15 PM i would be loathe to do this as a DM given logistical nightmares and PCs min/maxing too much, but you took the initiative to ask so i'll try and back you as best as i can.

-given the nature is magical, you should stick to magic to "rework" it. I would argue (conservatively i might add) Shape Metal w/ someone competant in Craft: Weaponsmithing might be your best bet for most swords.
-is there a wood version for wooden shields? i know there's Stone Shape, etc.

typically, breaking down an item to rework it often destroys the enchantment as it's becoming a "new item" and the magic won't stick. that is, "if the shoe fits" so to speak. they don't want you taking too many shortcuts and liberties. they'd rather you go earn the cash conventionally i suppose.
Doctor_Grumpus
10-25-07, 03:33 PM I agree that a shield or a weapon would be difficult enough to do with mundane items, but what would folks allow, say, with chain mail. Would you allow non-magical size alteration from medium to small? Modify armor for PCs with wings?
groveborn
10-25-07, 06:13 PM Polymorph Any Object could do this in 3.0. They restricted it to not work on magic items in 3.5, unfortunately.

Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.
PhaedrusXY
10-25-07, 06:17 PM Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.BRILLIANT! Damn... why didn't I think of that? :embarrass
risner
10-25-07, 07:43 PM Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.

Ridiculously awesome.
groveborn
10-26-07, 07:07 AM Really? I thought somebody else should have said it a long time ago. Eh. Still, ever want a +5 AC 100% immunity to crits with 20 resistance to everything...sword? :) Just polymorph that shield.
1 ton ghost
10-26-07, 11:44 AM Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.

that is terribly innovative and timely. well done.
but you gotta' work fast to go in 4 rounds, you know? 10/min...
maybe Haste might help to boot. who knows.
PhaedrusXY
10-26-07, 11:52 AM that is terribly innovative and timely. well done.
but you gotta' work fast to go in 4 rounds, you know? 10/min...
maybe Haste might help to boot. who knows.The PaO should be permanent.
1 ton ghost
10-26-07, 03:17 PM The PaO should be permanent.

i'm working on the premise that it might not be available given CL and all. sometimes you just can't keep throwing more cash and magic at a problem till it goes away.
Nephlite
10-26-07, 05:10 PM i'm working on the premise that it might not be available given CL and all. sometimes you just can't keep throwing more cash and magic at a problem till it goes away.

Isn't that how Fighter types stay competitive and useful? (I make joke)
SirGeshko
10-26-07, 05:47 PM The Variable enhancement (+1) in MiC allows you to change your shield's size from a tower to a buckler and anything in between.
groveborn
10-27-07, 03:11 AM Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either.
ArcTan
10-27-07, 03:24 AM In many fantasy settings one smith has turned either a broken weapon into a fixed weapon, or a whole new item with some other thing. Why not reforge the shield? It wouldn't take that much work.

Suggesting that you can somehow lop off half the metal in a tower shield without doing anything to the enchantments on it frankly hurts my suspension of disbelief too much to allow it.

I mean, that would mean that if I used my adamantine greatsword to sunder your shield in combat, your shield would stay enchanted -- after all, all I did was cut off part of it.

"Reforging" a shield, by the way, would in real life mean basically melting the shield down and making a whole new shield out of it. Saying that *that* wouldn't mess with the enchantments on it hurts my suspension of disbelief even more.
ArcTan
10-27-07, 03:26 AM Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.

Dispel magic wears off, the shield becomes a magical shield again, no longer susceptible to the effects of PAO, turns back into its original form.

This is exactly analogous to what happens if a Troll polymorphs into a Human, casts enlarge person on himself, and then polymorph wears off. He does not then become a Huge-sized Troll -- he turns back into a Troll of his original size.
ArcTan
10-27-07, 03:27 AM Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either.

...Which is the equivalent of melting the shield down and making a new shield (or a knife, or a set of horseshoes) out of it.

Again, claiming that the magical enchantment somehow stays on the shield after the shield has completely lost its original shape -- nope, not gonna buy it. Not without a specialized enhancement to let it do so (variable from MIC, as someone else has pointed out).
groveborn
10-27-07, 05:04 PM It has been established that spells only check for valid targets ONCE, at the time of casting. That being said, a permanent solution such as PAO wouldn't care that the shield became magical, as you can make an object that you changed with PAO magical afterwards anyway.

By reforging, yes, I'm sure the magic would be damaged, but not if you used a spell to just reshape it. By RAW there is no damage. If the item is not damaged, it is not disenchanted. You can remove components all you like from an object if it's not being dealt damage. The magic doesn't check to make sure it's the same weight, it checks for damage.

Rules is rules ArcTan. Changing them to suit your fancy is houseruling.
ArcTan
10-27-07, 09:35 PM It has been established that spells only check for valid targets ONCE, at the time of casting. That being said, a permanent solution such as PAO wouldn't care that the shield became magical, as you can make an object that you changed with PAO magical afterwards anyway.

That's a kludgy ruling from the FAQ that creates as many problems as it solves. In any case, all it means is that a Troll who polymorphs into a Human and gets enlarge person cast on him still has the spell active when he changes back. It does *not* mean that enlarge person actually *works* on the Troll, making him a Huge-sized Troll.
risner
10-28-07, 07:43 AM Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either.

And it wouldn't be master work and it wouldn't be magical either.
BlackSmith
10-28-07, 08:23 AM And it wouldn't be master work

Fabricate
...
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.
Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.If you can beat the craft DC, sure you can.
risner
10-28-07, 10:27 PM If you can beat the craft DC, sure you can.

You only get one craft check, to make a masterwork item you need two checks:
One to make the item (what fabricate gives you.)
One to make it a masterwork item (which fabricate does not provide.)
groveborn
10-29-07, 07:13 AM You don't need two checks to make masterwork items with Fabricate, only one. Remember that the second check is to determine mostly how long it's going to take to complete the item and so isn't really required as you make both the masterwork component, as well as the other part at the same time. Assuming this is false, of course, would be that you use the spell twice, one for each component.

Next, aside from weapons, armor, and shields, no item requires masterwork properties to be magical. One could even argue that since the Tower shield began as masterwork that it carries the "masterwork component" and could be converted into a new masterwork item that way. Rules are vague that way.

Also, unless an item is damaged, as in dealt damage, it cannot lose its magic by transforming it. One could certainly argue reforging it could deal damage, fire damage actually... but this is magic we're talking about.

Lastly, there are zero rules for an item losing its magical properties if it stops being masterwork, though it may not be further enhanced. In fact, it wasn't thought of. If a magic shield (masterwork quality of course) was changed into a toilet of bad quality, then that toilet will still provide its wielder with a shield bonus of not less than +1, in addition to whatever other enhancements it may have. These are the rules of the game, and anything else is a houserule.

All that being said, I can't prevent people from arguing that using fabricate utterly destroys the components to create the new item, but that's always there for discussion. I would rule that in the case of using a large bit of material to make a smaller bit of material than the bits would just reform, and some would fall off. But maybe that's just me. You can still use PAO.
BlackSmith
10-29-07, 08:47 AM You only get one craft check, to make a masterwork item you need two checks: You need multiple checks if daily progress is wanted too.
Like said, the second check is to reflect how much longer it takes to make MW item.
PhaedrusXY
10-29-07, 04:43 PM That's a kludgy ruling from the FAQ that creates as many problems as it solves. In any case, all it means is that a Troll who polymorphs into a Human and gets enlarge person cast on him still has the spell active when he changes back. It does *not* mean that enlarge person actually *works* on the Troll, making him a Huge-sized Troll.Whether you like it or not, it is in the FAQ, and thus is a precedent for how WotC thinks things should work. And that is exactly what it means: the troll would be huge when it changed back.

Of course, people are free to do whatever they want in their actual games, but if we're discussing what the official stance is on the rules, then it is clear that spells only check target validity at the time of casting.
ArcTan
10-29-07, 11:07 PM Whether you like it or not, it is in the FAQ, and thus is a precedent for how WotC thinks things should work. And that is exactly what it means: the troll would be huge when it changed back.

*sigh* No, it doesn't. Check it again. It says that the Troll would have the spell active on it but it wouldn't apply.
groveborn
10-30-07, 06:20 AM *sigh* No, it doesn't. Check it again. It says that the Troll would have the spell active on it but it wouldn't apply.

I'm going to go with you on this one Arcy.

Here's what happens in this scenario:
Troll Wizard (a very dumb wizard he is) casts Polymorph to become, lets say an elf, as we all know a medium creature. The Elven Troll Wizard casts enlarge person to be large. The polymorph spell wears off, and the enlarged elf becomes a large (though not enlarged) troll. Since the Troll is naturally larger than an elf, the enlarge person spell has no effect as the physically larger form takes over. The new, old form is not affected by the enlarge person spell as the creature's size changed to compensate for the new (original) body.

It's all pretty convoluted, but lets reverse this and had an elf caster cast enlarge person, then cast polymorph. You can't use any spell combination to stack size. The Enlarge Person spell would still be active, but none functional. It would still time out normally, though if the elf/troll were to return to elf size, it would take over once more so long as it has not worn off yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jguggino 10-24-07, 08:42 PM	Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to a large shield, can that be done? If so what is the cost and how far can you go with this? Could a +5 two-handed sword be down to a bastard sword? I don’t think I want to go here but I would like to know if there is an answer out there.
Nephlite 10-24-07, 09:02 PM	Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to a large shield, can that be done? If so what is the cost and how far can you go with this? Could a +5 two-handed sword be down to a bastard sword? I don’t think I want to go here but I would like to know if there is an answer out there. Nope. There is no standard way to do that. Your asking to change not a magic item but a normal item by magic item rules. Why would you ewant to want to anyway? A 2 handed sword is not even close to a exotic weapon.
jguggino 10-24-07, 10:22 PM	Nope. There is no standard way to do that. Your asking to change not a magic item but a normal item by magic item rules. Why would you ewant to want to anyway? A 2 handed sword is not even close to a exotic weapon. I am just a DM :) The player is asking to change the Tower shield
Watsyurname529 10-24-07, 10:41 PM	What exactly are you trying to do? If you are trying to change mundane items into mundane items (Ex. Tower Shield to Large Shield) then it can not be done. If you are simply asking to remove the item enchantment, then that might be able to be done; it would just take some homebrew ruling. But why would you want to anyway?
jguggino 10-24-07, 10:47 PM	Let me reword it Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done?
Orion959 10-24-07, 10:55 PM	My DM allowed for 'limited wish' to be used to allow a variant polymorph of one item into something else. He used the 'polymorph any object' rules to determine duration. Something like a tower shield to a large shield would be permanent. Sounds simple enough.
Fireclave 10-24-07, 11:25 PM	Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done? According to the RAW (rules as written), no you cannot. But since you are the DM, you could just invoke Rule 0 and allow your player to do so, and in the case of a tower shield to heavy shield, it's not entirely unreasonable.
groveborn 10-25-07, 06:05 AM	In many fantasy settings one smith has turned either a broken weapon into a fixed weapon, or a whole new item with some other thing. Why not reforge the shield? It wouldn't take that much work. That being said, this could set a precedent that you would rather not. If you change a shield, why not a sword? Or how about a bow? I'd not allow it just to keep sanity, but sure, it could be done.
risner 10-25-07, 08:20 AM	Let me reword it Is it possible to modify a magic item? Let’s say a player has a +1 animated Tower shield and they want to “cut” it down to make a +1 animated large shield, can that be done? Yes, they sell the tower shield for half, and buy the large shield for full. You (as a DM) could do what I would likely do, sell the large shield for 55% if trading in the tower for half. This would result in being almost free. In the case of other changes (like turning in a +1 for a +5) I wouldn't deviate from the RAW (which is they sell for half buy for full.)
Merestil Haye 10-25-07, 11:40 AM	Yes you can. Find a powerful wizard to Disjoin the tower shield. Have the tower shield reworked into a large shield by a competent armourer. Find someone to enchant the shield with whatever powers you wish.That's probably not what your player wants to do, but it can be done. It's quicker and less expensive to try and find someone to make the exchange.
PhaedrusXY 10-25-07, 02:09 PM	Polymorph Any Object could do this in 3.0. They restricted it to not work on magic items in 3.5, unfortunately.
1 ton ghost 10-25-07, 03:15 PM	i would be loathe to do this as a DM given logistical nightmares and PCs min/maxing too much, but you took the initiative to ask so i'll try and back you as best as i can. -given the nature is magical, you should stick to magic to "rework" it. I would argue (conservatively i might add) Shape Metal w/ someone competant in Craft: Weaponsmithing might be your best bet for most swords. -is there a wood version for wooden shields? i know there's Stone Shape, etc. typically, breaking down an item to rework it often destroys the enchantment as it's becoming a "new item" and the magic won't stick. that is, "if the shoe fits" so to speak. they don't want you taking too many shortcuts and liberties. they'd rather you go earn the cash conventionally i suppose.
Doctor_Grumpus 10-25-07, 03:33 PM	I agree that a shield or a weapon would be difficult enough to do with mundane items, but what would folks allow, say, with chain mail. Would you allow non-magical size alteration from medium to small? Modify armor for PCs with wings?
groveborn 10-25-07, 06:13 PM	Polymorph Any Object could do this in 3.0. They restricted it to not work on magic items in 3.5, unfortunately. Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.
PhaedrusXY 10-25-07, 06:17 PM	Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield.BRILLIANT! Damn... why didn't I think of that? :embarrass
risner 10-25-07, 07:43 PM	Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield. Ridiculously awesome.
groveborn 10-26-07, 07:07 AM	Really? I thought somebody else should have said it a long time ago. Eh. Still, ever want a +5 AC 100% immunity to crits with 20 resistance to everything...sword? :) Just polymorph that shield.
1 ton ghost 10-26-07, 11:44 AM	Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield. that is terribly innovative and timely. well done. but you gotta' work fast to go in 4 rounds, you know? 10/min... maybe Haste might help to boot. who knows.
PhaedrusXY 10-26-07, 11:52 AM	that is terribly innovative and timely. well done. but you gotta' work fast to go in 4 rounds, you know? 10/min... maybe Haste might help to boot. who knows.The PaO should be permanent.
1 ton ghost 10-26-07, 03:17 PM	The PaO should be permanent. i'm working on the premise that it might not be available given CL and all. sometimes you just can't keep throwing more cash and magic at a problem till it goes away.
Nephlite 10-26-07, 05:10 PM	i'm working on the premise that it might not be available given CL and all. sometimes you just can't keep throwing more cash and magic at a problem till it goes away. Isn't that how Fighter types stay competitive and useful? (I make joke)
SirGeshko 10-26-07, 05:47 PM	The Variable enhancement (+1) in MiC allows you to change your shield's size from a tower to a buckler and anything in between.
groveborn 10-27-07, 03:11 AM	Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either.
ArcTan 10-27-07, 03:24 AM	In many fantasy settings one smith has turned either a broken weapon into a fixed weapon, or a whole new item with some other thing. Why not reforge the shield? It wouldn't take that much work. Suggesting that you can somehow lop off half the metal in a tower shield without doing anything to the enchantments on it frankly hurts my suspension of disbelief too much to allow it. I mean, that would mean that if I used my adamantine greatsword to sunder your shield in combat, your shield would stay enchanted -- after all, all I did was cut off part of it. "Reforging" a shield, by the way, would in real life mean basically melting the shield down and making a whole new shield out of it. Saying that that wouldn't mess with the enchantments on it hurts my suspension of disbelief even more.
ArcTan 10-27-07, 03:26 AM	Dispel it first, no longer magical for up to 4 rounds. PAO, and poof, new shield. Dispel magic wears off, the shield becomes a magical shield again, no longer susceptible to the effects of PAO, turns back into its original form. This is exactly analogous to what happens if a Troll polymorphs into a Human, casts enlarge person on himself, and then polymorph wears off. He does not then become a Huge-sized Troll -- he turns back into a Troll of his original size.
ArcTan 10-27-07, 03:27 AM	Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either. ...Which is the equivalent of melting the shield down and making a new shield (or a knife, or a set of horseshoes) out of it. Again, claiming that the magical enchantment somehow stays on the shield after the shield has completely lost its original shape -- nope, not gonna buy it. Not without a specialized enhancement to let it do so (variable from MIC, as someone else has pointed out).
groveborn 10-27-07, 05:04 PM	It has been established that spells only check for valid targets ONCE, at the time of casting. That being said, a permanent solution such as PAO wouldn't care that the shield became magical, as you can make an object that you changed with PAO magical afterwards anyway. By reforging, yes, I'm sure the magic would be damaged, but not if you used a spell to just reshape it. By RAW there is no damage. If the item is not damaged, it is not disenchanted. You can remove components all you like from an object if it's not being dealt damage. The magic doesn't check to make sure it's the same weight, it checks for damage. Rules is rules ArcTan. Changing them to suit your fancy is houseruling.
ArcTan 10-27-07, 09:35 PM	It has been established that spells only check for valid targets ONCE, at the time of casting. That being said, a permanent solution such as PAO wouldn't care that the shield became magical, as you can make an object that you changed with PAO magical afterwards anyway. That's a kludgy ruling from the FAQ that creates as many problems as it solves. In any case, all it means is that a Troll who polymorphs into a Human and gets enlarge person cast on him still has the spell active when he changes back. It does not mean that enlarge person actually works on the Troll, making him a Huge-sized Troll.
risner 10-28-07, 07:43 AM	Of course, nobody mentions the alternate, Fabricate. D&D doesn't rule what materials are appropriate in this, so one could use that Tower shield as the base material, and turn it into a smaller shield. It wouldn't have a duration, either. And it wouldn't be master work and it wouldn't be magical either.
BlackSmith 10-28-07, 08:23 AM	And it wouldn't be master work Fabricate ... You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell. Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.If you can beat the craft DC, sure you can.
risner 10-28-07, 10:27 PM	If you can beat the craft DC, sure you can. You only get one craft check, to make a masterwork item you need two checks: One to make the item (what fabricate gives you.) One to make it a masterwork item (which fabricate does not provide.)
groveborn 10-29-07, 07:13 AM	You don't need two checks to make masterwork items with Fabricate, only one. Remember that the second check is to determine mostly how long it's going to take to complete the item and so isn't really required as you make both the masterwork component, as well as the other part at the same time. Assuming this is false, of course, would be that you use the spell twice, one for each component. Next, aside from weapons, armor, and shields, no item requires masterwork properties to be magical. One could even argue that since the Tower shield began as masterwork that it carries the "masterwork component" and could be converted into a new masterwork item that way. Rules are vague that way. Also, unless an item is damaged, as in dealt damage, it cannot lose its magic by transforming it. One could certainly argue reforging it could deal damage, fire damage actually... but this is magic we're talking about. Lastly, there are zero rules for an item losing its magical properties if it stops being masterwork, though it may not be further enhanced. In fact, it wasn't thought of. If a magic shield (masterwork quality of course) was changed into a toilet of bad quality, then that toilet will still provide its wielder with a shield bonus of not less than +1, in addition to whatever other enhancements it may have. These are the rules of the game, and anything else is a houserule. All that being said, I can't prevent people from arguing that using fabricate utterly destroys the components to create the new item, but that's always there for discussion. I would rule that in the case of using a large bit of material to make a smaller bit of material than the bits would just reform, and some would fall off. But maybe that's just me. You can still use PAO.
BlackSmith 10-29-07, 08:47 AM	You only get one craft check, to make a masterwork item you need two checks: You need multiple checks if daily progress is wanted too. Like said, the second check is to reflect how much longer it takes to make MW item.
PhaedrusXY 10-29-07, 04:43 PM	That's a kludgy ruling from the FAQ that creates as many problems as it solves. In any case, all it means is that a Troll who polymorphs into a Human and gets enlarge person cast on him still has the spell active when he changes back. It does not mean that enlarge person actually works on the Troll, making him a Huge-sized Troll.Whether you like it or not, it is in the FAQ, and thus is a precedent for how WotC thinks things should work. And that is exactly what it means: the troll would be huge when it changed back. Of course, people are free to do whatever they want in their actual games, but if we're discussing what the official stance is on the rules, then it is clear that spells only check target validity at the time of casting.
ArcTan 10-29-07, 11:07 PM	Whether you like it or not, it is in the FAQ, and thus is a precedent for how WotC thinks things should work. And that is exactly what it means: the troll would be huge when it changed back. sigh No, it doesn't. Check it again. It says that the Troll would have the spell active on it but it wouldn't apply.
groveborn 10-30-07, 06:20 AM	sigh No, it doesn't. Check it again. It says that the Troll would have the spell active on it but it wouldn't apply. I'm going to go with you on this one Arcy. Here's what happens in this scenario: Troll Wizard (a very dumb wizard he is) casts Polymorph to become, lets say an elf, as we all know a medium creature. The Elven Troll Wizard casts enlarge person to be large. The polymorph spell wears off, and the enlarged elf becomes a large (though not enlarged) troll. Since the Troll is naturally larger than an elf, the enlarge person spell has no effect as the physically larger form takes over. The new, old form is not affected by the enlarge person spell as the creature's size changed to compensate for the new (original) body. It's all pretty convoluted, but lets reverse this and had an elf caster cast enlarge person, then cast polymorph. You can't use any spell combination to stack size. The Enlarge Person spell would still be active, but none functional. It would still time out normally, though if the elf/troll were to return to elf size, it would take over once more so long as it has not worn off yet.