Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phoenixpyre 04-02-07, 04:53 PM	Can you polymorph into a template-ed version of yourself? Ok, so I've read the new polymorph errata, but being as I'm not, and never plan to be, a lawyer I admit, I can't really make sense of it all. Maybe if I saw a comparison chart, of new rules verses old rules... Anyway, that statement is just to avoid posts pointing me to the new errata. If you need to reference the new rules, thats fine, but explain it, along with your link. So back to the original question. Let's say your an elf, could you polymorph into a half-dragon elf? If not, why not? And so, and so forth...
elondir 04-02-07, 04:59 PM	I'm not absolutely sure, but I think you can. I would allow it in my games. I have a similar question. Can you alter self into the hybrid or animal form of a lycanthrope? Technically they are humanoid with the shapechanger descriptor. You would not be able to change from hybrid to animal or human, since it is a supernatural ability, but if you cast the spell into one of the forms and didn't worry about shapechanging to other forms, could it work? I'm imagining using alter self into a werebear hybrid or bear form.
groveborn 04-02-07, 05:28 PM	I'm afraid you cannot, by the rules of Polymorph, into any Templated version of anything. In order to find out why, you have to reference Alter Self, which states you cannot assume a template. Which also means you can't alter self into a whereanything btw... Even if you happen to be a DM, and allow such a thing, the Template would have to be the ordinary run of the mill stats for that type. You could become a Half-Dragon, technically since it's a monster, and your other half could be elven, but you have the half-dragon stats as stated in the Monster Manual, not those of your Elf, with template applied. The reasoning for that, I would gather, is that if you could, you'd be over powered very quickly. Then again, as you wouldn't gain the breath weapon this way, why a Half-Dragon at all? Why not a 12 headed hydra :)?
Dheran 04-02-07, 05:30 PM	I don't think you can. Polymorph This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.Alter Self You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
Dheran 04-02-07, 05:34 PM	I have a similar question. Can you alter self into the hybrid or animal form of a lycanthrope? Once again, I'd say that's against the rules. "Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The lycanthrope template can be inherited (for natural lycanthropes) or acquired (for afflicted lycanthropes). Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice.
ArcTan 04-02-07, 11:26 PM	Can you polymorph into a template-ed version of yourself? Ok, so I've read the new polymorph errata, but being as I'm not, and never plan to be, a lawyer I admit, I can't really make sense of it all. Maybe if I saw a comparison chart, of new rules verses old rules... Anyway, that statement is just to avoid posts pointing me to the new errata. If you need to reference the new rules, thats fine, but explain it, along with your link. The new rules are very simple, when it comes to the polymorph spell itself. They don't touch it, at all. What they do do is remove all references to polymorph from every other ability that used to reference it -- Druids' Wildshape, monsters' Alternate Form or Change Shape abilities, etc. That's because, if you read the editorial that came with the errata, what they really wanted to do was *delete* polymorph, but since they can't actually remove something from the game in the middle of an edition, they're just settling for rules that let them stop referencing polymorph and pretend it doesn't exist. So back to the original question. Let's say your an elf, could you polymorph into a half-dragon elf? If not, why not? And so, and so forth... No, because polymorph and its siblings don't ever let you assume templates. Polymorph is based on alter self, which says: You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. And polymorph says nothing to contradict this.
ArcTan 04-02-07, 11:34 PM	I'm afraid you cannot, by the rules of Polymorph, into any Templated version of anything. In order to find out why, you have to reference Alter Self, which states you cannot assume a template. Which also means you can't alter self into a whereanything btw... Even if you happen to be a DM, and allow such a thing, the Template would have to be the ordinary run of the mill stats for that type. You could become a Half-Dragon, technically since it's a monster, and your other half could be elven, but you have the half-dragon stats as stated in the Monster Manual, not those of your Elf, with template applied. Well, this houserule doesn't make much sense, because by definition there isn't a "typical" Half-Dragon, because Half-Dragon is a template. There is an *example* Half-Dragon in the MM, because all templates come with an example stat block to show you how the template works when you apply it to a monster, but it's nothing more than an example. It's not like 4th-level half-black-dragon human fighters are particularly more common than any other kind of half-dragon. You can houserule this if you want, but it, itself, constitutes a form of power creep. Since the template has no base creature and therefore no class levels -- and lots of the template examples do have class levels -- you're implying that you can polymorph into a class-leveled example of a monster, which opens the door for all kinds of horror. Even limiting players to the *example* class-leveled monsters is a problem. (Letting the mage become an ogre is one thing -- letting him become the example 8th-level ogre barbarian is another.)
ArcTan 04-02-07, 11:35 PM	Then again, as you wouldn't gain the breath weapon this way, why a Half-Dragon at all? Why not a 12 headed hydra :)? You'd get limited utility from the hydra, because polymorph and alter self both explicitly exclude extra attacks as something you get from your form.
Steidas 04-03-07, 01:36 AM	You'd get limited utility from the hydra, because polymorph and alter self both explicitly exclude extra attacks as something you get from your form. But you DO get the SPECIAL attacks.
groveborn 04-03-07, 04:58 AM	But you DO get the SPECIAL attacks. Unfortunately it doesn't have a special attack, but the spell description states having extra LIMBS does not allow for more attacks...states nothing about heads ;) I don't really care if that's a loophole or not, it's still not covered. I would, however, agree that it would likely fall under the extra limbs bit. I didn't notice that the Half-Dragon in the MM was just a template example, I thought it was a full blown description, my bad. I've never used one in a game, so I had no reason to memorize it.
Senko 04-03-07, 10:08 AM	What why do they want to remove polymorph? I love my tranformation spells and turning various beings into various other beings.
Steidas 04-03-07, 11:12 AM	Unfortunately it doesn't have a special attack, but the spell description states having extra LIMBS does not allow for more attacks...states nothing about heads ;) I don't really care if that's a loophole or not, it's still not covered. I would, however, agree that it would likely fall under the extra limbs bit. I didn't notice that the Half-Dragon in the MM was just a template example, I thought it was a full blown description, my bad. I've never used one in a game, so I had no reason to memorize it. But heads are not extra limbs... they're heads :cool: ... (runs away)
ArcTan 04-03-07, 11:15 AM	Unfortunately it doesn't have a special attack, but the spell description states having extra LIMBS does not allow for more attacks...states nothing about heads ;) I don't really care if that's a loophole or not, it's still not covered. I would, however, agree that it would likely fall under the extra limbs bit. The hydra uses them the way you or I would use a limb. They count as limbs. I didn't notice that the Half-Dragon in the MM was just a template example, I thought it was a full blown description, my bad. I've never used one in a game, so I had no reason to memorize it. The general rule for templates is that by definition any full stat block is just an example. You can't be a Half-Fiend without also being half-something else.
ArcTan 04-03-07, 11:17 AM	What why do they want to remove polymorph? I love my tranformation spells and turning various beings into various other beings. Because it's a very, very powerful spell that breaks the game. Worse, it breaks the game by being very, very complex and hard to adjudicate, daring players to sift through books intended for DMs looking for monsters to turn into (and find a way to justify "familiarity" with in their backstory), meaning attempts to balance it turn into headscratching maneuvers of poring over monster entry after monster entry figuring out what's broken and what isn't. It's just not worth it after a certain point. WotC is replacing the polymorph spells with the "Polymorph subschool", a bunch of spells that fix this problem by letting one spell turn you into one and only one specific monster. People are pooh-poohing it as a "glorified summoning spell", but hey, it works. (And summoning monsters, you'll notice, *also* had to be balanced by limiting it to a very specific list of monsters.)
Senko 04-03-07, 09:36 PM	That's not fair :weep: I love turning things into other things men into women, human into toad and so on. With this new system there's practically no way a sorcerer could indulge that instinct sigh. Oh well thanks for the reply.
Barloch 04-03-07, 11:07 PM	Because it's a very, very powerful spell that breaks the game. Worse, it breaks the game by being very, very complex and hard to adjudicate, daring players to sift through books intended for DMs looking for monsters to turn into (and find a way to justify "familiarity" with in their backstory), meaning attempts to balance it turn into headscratching maneuvers of poring over monster entry after monster entry figuring out what's broken and what isn't. It's just not worth it after a certain point. WotC is replacing the polymorph spells with the "Polymorph subschool", a bunch of spells that fix this problem by letting one spell turn you into one and only one specific monster. People are pooh-poohing it as a "glorified summoning spell", but hey, it works. (And summoning monsters, you'll notice, *also* had to be balanced by limiting it to a very specific list of monsters.) Thats just dumb. If the DM can throw it at me, and expect to live, I should be able to turn into it and expect to kill something. The real reason is because they made the wartroll and then went "damnit why is it so good for its hit dice?" Dunno about the rest of you, but me and my entire gaming group choose to ignore all the polymorph hullabulloo.
Senko 04-03-07, 11:26 PM	Here here if its problem is players turning into things make the things available balanced instead of broken. Speaking personally I only ever assume possible familiarity with creatures of appropriate CR or lower, first level excepted since my first level characters aren't familiar with any of them even if they have heard of them. Particularly since you don't even GET all of the critters abilities in the first place. Honestly this removing or reducing the effectiveness of things from the game is getting out of hand.
*Truean* 04-03-07, 11:35 PM	Make a list of things someone can polymorph into at given caster levels kinda like summon monster... WotC isn't going to do it... so I will :) Right after my senior projects :)
Senko 04-03-07, 11:40 PM	Bah just invent a lower level spell e.g CONTACT: 1st level, This spell records all the information about an item allowing a mage to polymorph into it, use greater creation to make it etc etc. That way they need to find the thing, cast contact and then they can turn into it, turn people into it, duplicate the 50 dollar note with true creation. If you want specify that it can't read dead creatures and that the recording takes 1d4 + 1 rounds that should satisfy things right?
ArcTan 04-04-07, 01:29 AM	Thats just dumb. If the DM can throw it at me, and expect to live, I should be able to turn into it and expect to kill something. The real reason is because they made the wartroll and then went "damnit why is it so good for its hit dice?" Would a War Troll still be balanced if he had a Wizard's ability scores and full Wizard spellcasting? That's the whole problem with polymorph -- it's not that easy to balance a monster if you can take out a high-level Wizard's brain and drop it in the monster's head, which is what polymorph does. A pixie, for instance, isn't very impressive as a pixie but can be terrifying if a Wizard turns into it. Dunno about the rest of you, but me and my entire gaming group choose to ignore all the polymorph hullabulloo. If it works for you, whatever. It does have a tendency to be more trouble than it's worth in games that haven't evolved an unspoken social contract about such things.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 01:32 AM	That's not fair :weep: I love turning things into other things men into women, human into toad and so on. With this new system there's practically no way a sorcerer could indulge that instinct sigh. Oh well thanks for the reply. Well, baleful polymorph, which is used offensively to turn humans into toads (or trolls into sheep, or whatever), still exists after the errata. It's actually gotten a power boost now that it's no longer based on polymorph -- you now lose your mental ability scores when baleful polymorphed as well. (It implies that you still have a vague memory of who you were and a desire to change back, unless you fail your Will save, but this will be far less effective without your old Int and Wis scores. No more accidentally creating super-powerful iguanas from Sorcerers who happened to have the Still and Silent spell feats, to say nothing of Psions.) Ordinary stuff like looking and sounding like a woman -- if not *being* a woman -- can still be accomplished with disguise self.
Senko 04-04-07, 02:00 AM	But disguise self is self only and can't be used to teach the school bully a lesson by turning him into a 5 year old girl or a chauvenist pig into a woman. Nor can it be used to reward you underlyings you have served me well here be a X (elf, pixie, wartroll). Or to create appropriate defenses e.g. a loyal sorcerer with still and silent spell turned into a fish or amphibious creature and placed in your moat, surrounding ocean, bird people for those mountain farms, mole people for the underground facilities etc etc. Edit Even a baleful polymorph would be problematic because your loyal follower who was willing to be birdman of the alps might now be no longer loyal and is certainly less effective. Bah keep polymorph I say keep it.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 04:42 AM	Well, here's where I pimp Rich Burlew's polymorph fix some more: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html
ArcTan 04-04-07, 04:47 AM	But disguise self is self only and can't be used to teach the school bully a lesson by turning him into a 5 year old girl or a chauvenist pig into a woman. Nor can it be used to reward you underlyings you have served me well here be a X (elf, pixie, wartroll). Or to create appropriate defenses e.g. a loyal sorcerer with still and silent spell turned into a fish or amphibious creature and placed in your moat, surrounding ocean, bird people for those mountain farms, mole people for the underground facilities etc etc. If you want *permanent* polymorph, you need the polymorph any object spell. Same if you want involuntary polymorph into a non-animal form, though I guess you can also accomplish that by knocking someone unconscious and polymorphing them. Here, you're talking about blowing so many 7th-level spell slots that you're probably Epic or close to Epic anyway, so you might as well just get *real* birdmen (raptorans?) to be your servants and so forth. Note that PAO creates forms that can be dispelled by an ordinary dispel magic check, which means it's not as awesome as you might think. And also that polymorph does *not* let you make up a new form and make people into it -- you can't come up with the idea of a "birdman" and create one. That's a function of the Master Transmogrifist PrC as its capstone ability. Edit Even a baleful polymorph would be problematic because your loyal follower who was willing to be birdman of the alps might now be no longer loyal and is certainly less effective. Well, yes. It's an offense spell. You can't make someone into a birdman, only a bird with 1 HD or less. Bah keep polymorph I say keep it. Make sure you're clear on what the spell can actually do, even in its original form, because I get the sense you're using it as a "Make anything into anything I want" spell, which even the original version clearly isn't.
Senko 04-04-07, 06:39 AM	Wait I assumed if polymorph was removed polymorph any object would go too, if they're keeping that then it gets even sillier to remove polymorph unless they're planning to nerf POA :rolleyes: . As for your other comments I was talking long term here after all it is your personal stronghold and you'd be continully improving/upgradng it. Even if your talking full time casting 2 7th level spells a day 365 day's a year will give you 730 people in the form of your choice. That's enough for a small city you'd probably only want about 10 to 15 for your mountain farms, 30 to 40 if your planning on a self sustaining villige. Thar's easily doable in less than a year lets see 2 7th level spells a day and you'll have your village in 15-20 day's less than a month of casting. As for my names they were just because I couldn't remember the specific one for a species of that type e.g. raptorans I wasn't creating new life forms. That's a whole different balgame if a rather fun one.:D As for the dispel magic check honestly who goes around casting random dispel magic spells on simple peasants? The school bully is slightly diferent but their parents would probably not want to pay for a dispel magic (possibly needing to hunt down a mage to cast it) when their child will turn back once they've learnt a lesson. Particularly if you keep half an eye on them and pop back to retransform them if they cheat.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 12:51 PM	Wait I assumed if polymorph was removed polymorph any object would go too, if they're keeping that then it gets even sillier to remove polymorph unless they're planning to nerf POA :rolleyes: . Yeah, both polymorph and PAO are deprecated. As for your other comments I was talking long term here after all it is your personal stronghold and you'd be continully improving/upgradng it. Even if your talking full time casting 2 7th level spells a day 365 day's a year will give you 730 people in the form of your choice. That's enough for a small city you'd probably only want about 10 to 15 for your mountain farms, 30 to 40 if your planning on a self sustaining villige. Thar's easily doable in less than a year lets see 2 7th level spells a day and you'll have your village in 15-20 day's less than a month of casting. As for my names they were just because I couldn't remember the specific one for a species of that type e.g. raptorans I wasn't creating new life forms. That's a whole different balgame if a rather fun one.:D As for the dispel magic check honestly who goes around casting random dispel magic spells on simple peasants? The school bully is slightly diferent but their parents would probably not want to pay for a dispel magic (possibly needing to hunt down a mage to cast it) when their child will turn back once they've learnt a lesson. Particularly if you keep half an eye on them and pop back to retransform them if they cheat. I guess, although it does seem to be a weird way for a high-level mage to spend his time. But every game is different.
sigma999 04-04-07, 02:42 PM	I'm afraid you can, in a way. And it's delicious. Check the Spell Compendium; there is a series of spells, one of them called Bite of the Werewolf, that give limited capabilities of a hybrid lycanthrope. Is this what you were looking for? Here's a sample from wizards.com, although it was revised for 3.5 and the SC printing: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020413a "Bite of the Werewolf Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Drd 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level You take on certain qualities of a wolf, almost as though you were a werewolf in hybrid form. You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength score, a +4 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity score, and a +4 enhancement bonus to your Constitution score. Your face lengthens into a wolflike muzzle, and you can attack with your bite if you choose, dealing 1d6 points of damage (or 1d4 points if you are Small) on a hit. You gain the benefits of the Blind-Fight feat as well, and a +4 natural armor bonus. Material Component: Hair from a werewolf." There are also spells of higher level that allow you to become Celestial or Fiendish, though these are Divine only. And there is a spell somewhere that makes you or allies into that Lawful template version in exchange for some XP but I can't remember the names. These are probably also found in Spell Compendium.
Barloch 04-04-07, 10:30 PM	Well wizards still can't cast spells in a large amount of forms they can take. And you're int of 26 doesn't help you hit anything harder then an int of 3.
Senko 04-04-07, 10:31 PM	I guess, although it does seem to be a weird way for a high-level mage to spend his time. But every game is different. Thanks for the reply and its what I'd be doing if I was a high level mage (and there weren't laws against it).