Can you put a symbol spell on your own body? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you put a symbol spell on your own body? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hammerhead
05-31-06, 09:12 PM Can you? I think it would count as a surface
DaMullet
05-31-06, 10:04 PM I'd allow it if you had ranks in Profession: Tatooist or something of that ilk.
smrtgmp
05-31-06, 10:07 PM I dont see why not. Even if you cant, you could put one on a metal disk or something and attach it to the front of your robe.

A high-level tactic I'm fond of: Cast permanency on a maximized (rod) symbol of weakness that you've engraved into yourself or on a disk or something (as above). Make sure the symbol is attuned to your companions. Set the trigger function to "when someone sees it." Now cover yourself with your favorite illusion.

If someone within 60ft of you pierces it with trueseeing, they and everyone else within 60 ft (except you and your allies) has to make a fort save or take 18 points of str damage. Best of all, they have to make the save each and every time they enter the area.
Someone
06-01-06, 02:27 AM I'd suggest not having it permanent, just in case you change allies (you set who won't be affected each time you cast it). But yes, a symbol on yourself is very potent, for several thousand bucks a pop. I myself like an extended symbol of stunning (or sleep at lower levels) combined with a party of rogues.
mvincent
06-01-06, 03:37 PM A permanent symbol of persuasion is a good one, as it does not present a problem when you change allies.

When you cast it you might as well also use a bead of karma, a rod of extend, DC (i.e. ability) boosters, and/or Widen Spell.
tarkin
06-01-06, 04:24 PM As a DM, I would allow it, but also rule that any blow that takes you down below 0 hitpoints automatically destroys the symbol.

(Just as any blow that takes an object below 0 hitpoints destroys all magical properties of that object).
mvincent
06-01-06, 04:49 PM As a DM, I would allow it, but also rule that any blow that takes you down below 0 hitpoints automatically destroys the symbol.

(Just as any blow that takes an object below 0 hitpoints destroys all magical properties of that object).Odd. Would you do the same with say; invisibility, light, nondetection, Undetectable Alignment, Magic Mouth, etc.?
(i.e. these spells can be used on creatures as well as objects).
Hammerhead
06-01-06, 08:19 PM How about if you die it goes away?
mvincent
06-01-06, 09:22 PM How about if you die it goes away?I'm unsure of the rules on this, but I don't believe spells go away if you die (anyone know?).

But in the case of symbol (which is different), I would likely treat your skin as any other writing surface. The spell description says "Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it". Disintegrate, immersion in acid or bathed in fire could possibly destroy the 'surface', but a say, a death effect would not. Assuming the symbol was in an exposed location, some DM's might even role % after each successful hit on the wearer to see if it gets scratch up.

Personally, I'd only check after a critical failure on a reflex save (or death by a particularly suitable source). Death by disintegrate would be automatic, of course.
Radagast
06-02-06, 12:05 PM I think that only spells that require Concentration end when the caster dies (or, in that case, goes below 0 hitpoints). There may be specific exceptions to this rule, of course.
tarkin
06-02-06, 01:08 PM Odd. Would you do the same with say; invisibility, light, nondetection, Undetectable Alignment, Magic Mouth, etc.?
(i.e. these spells can be used on creatures as well as objects).

I have nothing against spells cast on people. Perhaps I should have made that clear.

The reason I am placing the restriction is because you are using Permanacy.

Permancy has three categories of spells:

A)Those you can cast on yourself only.
B) Those you can cast on yourself, another creature or an object.
C) Those you can cast on an object or location, but NOT specifically on a creature or yourself.

A strict reading of the rules says "No, you can't make it permanent on yourself or another creature."

I am stating that if you are going to House Rule to allow someone make it permanent on themselves or another creature by calling them "an object", you should use the same rules for Permanancy that apply to any object:
When an object is brought below 0 hitpoints, all magic on it stops.

Yes I do agree that spells that you cast do not normally end when you die or go below 0 hitpotins, but I am not talking about the spell, I am talking about the restrictions created when you make it Permanent.
Nochtal
06-02-06, 01:34 PM I allow my players to do so if they have proffession tattooist, or if they make a spellcraft check, and use arcane mark intertwined with the spell they wish to use. The DC I use for it is 15+1(for arcane mark)+Other spells spell level+5(for casting two spells at once.)

I have a house rule that you can combine spells as you go up in levels. the specifics of it change depending on the situation. generally once they reach level 3 I let them combine up to two spells up to first level. At level 4 they can combine either 3 0 level spells. etc.

3 at once is the most I'll let. And they have to spend a feat to be able to do this called combined casting. And when they use it, they use a spell slot equal to the combined spells spell levels added together. so if they combied (0 counts as 1)

The best example was one of my players who was epic level after a year and a half of play w/ his wizard, he casted circle of death combined with animate dead (6+4=10, an epic level spell). I thought that was one of the best combined spells in any of my games I've run.
__DnD4Life__
06-02-06, 07:47 PM hmm...So, how much would one of these cost? How about a Symbol of pain, scribed onto breastplate? I would assume it is more than 1450GP (PHB cost for a spell plus material component). Could anyone give me a difinitive answer on this?
mvincent
06-02-06, 08:02 PM hmm...So, how much would one of these cost? How about a Symbol of pain, scribed onto breastplate? I would assume it is more than 1450GP (PHB cost for a spell plus material component). Could anyone give me a difinitive answer on this?It'd be:
5 (symbol of pain spell level)*9 (minimum caster level)*10=450gp +
1000 gp (Material component for symbol) +
5 (permanency level)*13 (minimum caster level for permanent symbol of pain)*10=650gp +
2,500(XP cost for symbol of pain)*5(cost per XP)=12,500

= 14,600 gp total
__DnD4Life__
06-02-06, 08:16 PM It'd be:
5 (symbol of pain spell level)*9 (minimum caster level)*10=450gp +
1000 gp (Material component for symbol) +
5 (permanency level)*13 (minimum caster level for permanent symbol of pain)*10=650gp +
2,500(XP cost for symbol of pain)*5(cost per XP)=12,500

= 14,600 gp total
Ok, thanks...ill run this by my DM. I wont be able to afford it now, but maybe later. It really ties into my character concept.
Arem_K
06-03-06, 04:49 AM This could be a great character. Role up an orc with a Cha of 2 or something. List your only gear as being a trenchcoat. Cover the front of your body with permanent symbols. In battle, rip open your coat and watch as your enemies fall dead from what they see. You are now D&D's first combat flasher.

For best results, do not tell the other PCs about the symbols, just let they assume it is your body that is doing this.
DungeonMaster
06-03-06, 09:54 PM Of course you can. This is one of the common tactics of the 3rd edition balor.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-04-06, 11:52 AM Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects. They were meant to act as traps rather than offensive spell effects.

Otherwise you get crazy combos with people putting 100 symbols on all their articles of clothing, or in the case of this thread, on their own body.
mvincent
06-04-06, 12:47 PM Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects.I agree with this notion, and wish that it was part of the actual rules. But then you also have to define what exactly constitutes 'stationary'.
Craig C.
06-04-06, 01:42 PM Of course you can. This is one of the common tactics of the 3rd edition balor.
This is true. There is at least 1 WotC 3.X module out where a Symbol spell is on a demon or devil of some sort. Case in point, a use of WotC's tacit approval of such a tactic.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-04-06, 02:15 PM I agree with this notion, and wish that it was part of the actual rules. But then you also have to define what exactly constitutes 'stationary'.

Yeah, I think the rules had the same problem in general.

The idea is that you probably want it to be able to protect a chest for instance, so you don't want the PCs to be able to simply push the chest before opening it to deactivate the symbol. However, if you allow that then you're also forced to allow PCs to carry around a chest with symbols in it and simply open the chest to offensively activate them.

Neither case is in fact what you want, so rules wise it's extremely difficult to define it in such a way as to allow it to function both as a trap and not as an offensive device.

It's one of those things that's best handled as more of a gentleman's agreement as opposed to by rules I think.
smrtgmp
06-04-06, 03:53 PM Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects. They were meant to act as traps rather than offensive spell effects.

Otherwise you get crazy combos with people putting 100 symbols on all their articles of clothing, or in the case of this thread, on their own body.Nevermind the fact that that would cost 500k.

If they only have 1 symbol on them at a time its not a problem. And given the prohibitive cost of a permanent symbol (in both gp and xp), I dont see many PCs trying to have much more than that at a time. Otherwise they're a single dispel away from losing an absolute fortune.

If you want to impose a limit, I would say that you can only have 1 symbol in any 5ft square or something similar. That would prevent someone from loading up on personal symbols.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hammerhead 05-31-06, 09:12 PM	Can you? I think it would count as a surface
DaMullet 05-31-06, 10:04 PM	I'd allow it if you had ranks in Profession: Tatooist or something of that ilk.
smrtgmp 05-31-06, 10:07 PM	I dont see why not. Even if you cant, you could put one on a metal disk or something and attach it to the front of your robe. A high-level tactic I'm fond of: Cast permanency on a maximized (rod) symbol of weakness that you've engraved into yourself or on a disk or something (as above). Make sure the symbol is attuned to your companions. Set the trigger function to "when someone sees it." Now cover yourself with your favorite illusion. If someone within 60ft of you pierces it with trueseeing, they and everyone else within 60 ft (except you and your allies) has to make a fort save or take 18 points of str damage. Best of all, they have to make the save each and every time they enter the area.
Someone 06-01-06, 02:27 AM	I'd suggest not having it permanent, just in case you change allies (you set who won't be affected each time you cast it). But yes, a symbol on yourself is very potent, for several thousand bucks a pop. I myself like an extended symbol of stunning (or sleep at lower levels) combined with a party of rogues.
mvincent 06-01-06, 03:37 PM	A permanent symbol of persuasion is a good one, as it does not present a problem when you change allies. When you cast it you might as well also use a bead of karma, a rod of extend, DC (i.e. ability) boosters, and/or Widen Spell.
tarkin 06-01-06, 04:24 PM	As a DM, I would allow it, but also rule that any blow that takes you down below 0 hitpoints automatically destroys the symbol. (Just as any blow that takes an object below 0 hitpoints destroys all magical properties of that object).
mvincent 06-01-06, 04:49 PM	As a DM, I would allow it, but also rule that any blow that takes you down below 0 hitpoints automatically destroys the symbol. (Just as any blow that takes an object below 0 hitpoints destroys all magical properties of that object).Odd. Would you do the same with say; invisibility, light, nondetection, Undetectable Alignment, Magic Mouth, etc.? (i.e. these spells can be used on creatures as well as objects).
Hammerhead 06-01-06, 08:19 PM	How about if you die it goes away?
mvincent 06-01-06, 09:22 PM	How about if you die it goes away?I'm unsure of the rules on this, but I don't believe spells go away if you die (anyone know?). But in the case of symbol (which is different), I would likely treat your skin as any other writing surface. The spell description says "Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it". Disintegrate, immersion in acid or bathed in fire could possibly destroy the 'surface', but a say, a death effect would not. Assuming the symbol was in an exposed location, some DM's might even role % after each successful hit on the wearer to see if it gets scratch up. Personally, I'd only check after a critical failure on a reflex save (or death by a particularly suitable source). Death by disintegrate would be automatic, of course.
Radagast 06-02-06, 12:05 PM	I think that only spells that require Concentration end when the caster dies (or, in that case, goes below 0 hitpoints). There may be specific exceptions to this rule, of course.
tarkin 06-02-06, 01:08 PM	Odd. Would you do the same with say; invisibility, light, nondetection, Undetectable Alignment, Magic Mouth, etc.? (i.e. these spells can be used on creatures as well as objects). I have nothing against spells cast on people. Perhaps I should have made that clear. The reason I am placing the restriction is because you are using Permanacy. Permancy has three categories of spells: A)Those you can cast on yourself only. B) Those you can cast on yourself, another creature or an object. C) Those you can cast on an object or location, but NOT specifically on a creature or yourself. A strict reading of the rules says "No, you can't make it permanent on yourself or another creature." I am stating that if you are going to House Rule to allow someone make it permanent on themselves or another creature by calling them "an object", you should use the same rules for Permanancy that apply to any object: When an object is brought below 0 hitpoints, all magic on it stops. Yes I do agree that spells that you cast do not normally end when you die or go below 0 hitpotins, but I am not talking about the spell, I am talking about the restrictions created when you make it Permanent.
Nochtal 06-02-06, 01:34 PM	I allow my players to do so if they have proffession tattooist, or if they make a spellcraft check, and use arcane mark intertwined with the spell they wish to use. The DC I use for it is 15+1(for arcane mark)+Other spells spell level+5(for casting two spells at once.) I have a house rule that you can combine spells as you go up in levels. the specifics of it change depending on the situation. generally once they reach level 3 I let them combine up to two spells up to first level. At level 4 they can combine either 3 0 level spells. etc. 3 at once is the most I'll let. And they have to spend a feat to be able to do this called combined casting. And when they use it, they use a spell slot equal to the combined spells spell levels added together. so if they combied (0 counts as 1) The best example was one of my players who was epic level after a year and a half of play w/ his wizard, he casted circle of death combined with animate dead (6+4=10, an epic level spell). I thought that was one of the best combined spells in any of my games I've run.
__DnD4Life__ 06-02-06, 07:47 PM	hmm...So, how much would one of these cost? How about a Symbol of pain, scribed onto breastplate? I would assume it is more than 1450GP (PHB cost for a spell plus material component). Could anyone give me a difinitive answer on this?
mvincent 06-02-06, 08:02 PM	hmm...So, how much would one of these cost? How about a Symbol of pain, scribed onto breastplate? I would assume it is more than 1450GP (PHB cost for a spell plus material component). Could anyone give me a difinitive answer on this?It'd be: 5 (symbol of pain spell level)9 (minimum caster level)10=450gp + 1000 gp (Material component for symbol) + 5 (permanency level)13 (minimum caster level for permanent symbol of pain)10=650gp + 2,500(XP cost for symbol of pain)*5(cost per XP)=12,500 = 14,600 gp total
__DnD4Life__ 06-02-06, 08:16 PM	It'd be: 5 (symbol of pain spell level)9 (minimum caster level)10=450gp + 1000 gp (Material component for symbol) + 5 (permanency level)13 (minimum caster level for permanent symbol of pain)10=650gp + 2,500(XP cost for symbol of pain)*5(cost per XP)=12,500 = 14,600 gp total Ok, thanks...ill run this by my DM. I wont be able to afford it now, but maybe later. It really ties into my character concept.
Arem_K 06-03-06, 04:49 AM	This could be a great character. Role up an orc with a Cha of 2 or something. List your only gear as being a trenchcoat. Cover the front of your body with permanent symbols. In battle, rip open your coat and watch as your enemies fall dead from what they see. You are now D&D's first combat flasher. For best results, do not tell the other PCs about the symbols, just let they assume it is your body that is doing this.
DungeonMaster 06-03-06, 09:54 PM	Of course you can. This is one of the common tactics of the 3rd edition balor.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-04-06, 11:52 AM	Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects. They were meant to act as traps rather than offensive spell effects. Otherwise you get crazy combos with people putting 100 symbols on all their articles of clothing, or in the case of this thread, on their own body.
mvincent 06-04-06, 12:47 PM	Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects.I agree with this notion, and wish that it was part of the actual rules. But then you also have to define what exactly constitutes 'stationary'.
Craig C. 06-04-06, 01:42 PM	Of course you can. This is one of the common tactics of the 3rd edition balor. This is true. There is at least 1 WotC 3.X module out where a Symbol spell is on a demon or devil of some sort. Case in point, a use of WotC's tacit approval of such a tactic.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-04-06, 02:15 PM	I agree with this notion, and wish that it was part of the actual rules. But then you also have to define what exactly constitutes 'stationary'. Yeah, I think the rules had the same problem in general. The idea is that you probably want it to be able to protect a chest for instance, so you don't want the PCs to be able to simply push the chest before opening it to deactivate the symbol. However, if you allow that then you're also forced to allow PCs to carry around a chest with symbols in it and simply open the chest to offensively activate them. Neither case is in fact what you want, so rules wise it's extremely difficult to define it in such a way as to allow it to function both as a trap and not as an offensive device. It's one of those things that's best handled as more of a gentleman's agreement as opposed to by rules I think.
smrtgmp 06-04-06, 03:53 PM	Personally I've always believed that symbols can only be scribed on stationary objects. They were meant to act as traps rather than offensive spell effects. Otherwise you get crazy combos with people putting 100 symbols on all their articles of clothing, or in the case of this thread, on their own body.Nevermind the fact that that would cost 500k. If they only have 1 symbol on them at a time its not a problem. And given the prohibitive cost of a permanent symbol (in both gp and xp), I dont see many PCs trying to have much more than that at a time. Otherwise they're a single dispel away from losing an absolute fortune. If you want to impose a limit, I would say that you can only have 1 symbol in any 5ft square or something similar. That would prevent someone from loading up on personal symbols.