Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Grey Mouser 04-20-04, 08:38 AM	I thought not, but the PHB never makes a definite statement about it. I hope you can't, because I've written an adventure around an event involving it. Anyone have the definitive word on this?
TheRedRobedWizard 04-20-04, 08:43 AM	No rules say you can't, therefore you can. Republican logic wins again. -TRRW
dantedarkstar 04-20-04, 09:44 AM	Power Word Kill Enchantment (Compulsion) [Death, Mind-Affecting] Level: Sor/Wiz 9, War 9 ... blah, blah... Raise Dead Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 5 ... blah, blah... A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. ... blah, blah... This should explain everything.
The Grey Mouser 04-20-04, 09:55 AM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar This should explain everything. Death Effect was my problem, I wasn't 100% positive it included Power Word, Kill. Thankfully I now don't have to rewrite this. :)
Seeker95 04-20-04, 10:42 AM	Just providing the explicit answer that can be derived from dantedarkstar's quoted text... You can not use raise dead to raise a creature killed by power word, kill.
Zherog 04-20-04, 10:45 AM	You can use Resurrection or True Resurrection however.
The Grey Mouser 04-20-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Zherog You can use Resurrection or True Resurrection however. CRAP! I want to kill someone completely, without the chance of any Raising or Resurrection. Would Power Word, Kill have to followed by something that maybe traps the soul? The thing is I want this to be a dramatic moment, the protaganist can't stand there and cast spell after spell.
Zherog 04-20-04, 11:21 AM	Originally posted by The Grey Mouser I want to kill someone completely, without the chance of any Raising or Resurrection. I don't know of any way to do that in the Core Rules. Just about every method of "killing" has a counter. Even Trap the Soul.
TheRedRobedWizard 04-20-04, 12:45 PM	PWK, Trap the Soul, Imprisonment, Wish, and Miracle could probably do it. Albiet you'd have to cast all of them to make sure. -TRRW
dantedarkstar 04-20-04, 12:51 PM	Use Soul Bind after kill. That's exactly the sole reason for this spell. Althrough when the gem is smashed, soul will be released, and able to be brought back. Trap the Soul has similiar effect, but on target not already killed. And no, there is no way to completely, irrevocably kill someone without any possible way back. Well... there is... They have to die of old age. But that's kind of loooong way ;)
ThePo 04-20-04, 01:29 PM	If you have the epic level handbook there is a way. The assasin's guild known as the Garrotte carries this poison that they put in the eyes of the slain. It prevents all raising spells except Wish or Miracle and even then those spells only work 50% of the time. Forgot what it is called though... For utter destruction the assasin guild leader has a cloak that when placed over a body and a command word is spoken sends the body into a void that is beyond the reach of even greater gods. If you want someone dead use this guild or just adopt some of their equipment for yourself.
lion93 04-20-04, 02:39 PM	I have this problem in my games as well... it's just too hard to kill people... Assassinations don't work that well, you can't just have a sniper pick someone off... everything boils down to a protracted fight and then some wierd conflict to dispose of the body and soul. It changes the tactics of combat considerably. I'm thinking of putting in some kind of metal that 'soaks up' a soul and at least that way one could kill someone and then hide the weapon. Of course, divination still causes trouble.
Seeker95 04-20-04, 02:54 PM	Sometimes the best solution is somewhat more mundane. Back in an AD&D game (1986), my cleric was invited to the wedding of his traveling companion, a Paladin of some fame (this was the retirement session before the three of us went off to separate post-graduation paths). My cleric got a little tipsy (okay... a lot) and started hitting on the serving wench that had begun flirting with him. He musta made a really good charisma check (so he, in his inebriated state thought) since she agreed to meet him downstairs. He was glad to oblige her in her desire for companionship. He made his way downstairs and in the process of "getting ready" noticed a slight pain in his back. He realized all too quickly that the pain was a dagger, coated with poison. He had been assassinated by the agent of an evil dragon the party had subdued and looted years earlier. This would not have been a bad thing in and of itself. After all, I was right here in my best friend's castle, a good cleric who had earned lots of points in the after world. Getting back would be a breeze... Except that there was a body to discover. Unfortunately, one of my standard protection practices was to wear an amulet of proof against detection. And to make matters worse, the assassin had a bit of the caster in her as well. She turned me into a zombie and ordered me to guard an alcove for all eternity. The assassin also made use of the not-quite-finished state of the paladin's castle. The downstairs had lots of unfinished masonry. She decided to finish some of it. My body was bricked up into the alcove that, when completed, looked like the standard hallway wall. There I remain, doing my undead duty. Unager cannot be detected. He cannot be scried. He cannot be raised. And since he is undead, he also cannot be true resurrected. Best death in my 25 year gaming history.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-20-04, 03:22 PM	Killing someone is easy, making sure they stay dead is harder. Soul Bind is a wonderful way of making sure immediate ressurection is unavailable, and then you make the gem "dissapear" any one of numerous ways. Make it part of an amulet of non-detection, and sell it to someone virtuous for an added touch of irony.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-20-04, 03:28 PM	Flesh to Stone works pretty well to put someone out of the picture indefinitely. They're not dead, so Raise and Resurrect spells don't work. Use Stone Shape to turn the statue into something their friends wouldn't expect, and you're almost guaranteed to never see the guy again.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-20-04, 03:33 PM	Or better yet, crush the statue up and start sowing gravel. Or use the newly shaped stone block as part of your next Stone Golem
Beamup 04-20-04, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Flesh to Stone works pretty well to put someone out of the picture indefinitely. They're not dead, so Raise and Resurrect spells don't work. Use Stone Shape to turn the statue into something their friends wouldn't expect, and you're almost guaranteed to never see the guy again. Works only up until somebody casts Discern Location, unless you also cast a Permanencied Mind Blank (which you have to research yourself, and which will cost obscene amounts of XP if the DM has any clue). Really, turning somebody into an object (e.g. Soul Bind - FtS doesn't do this, they remain a 'creature') or Permanencied Mind Blank is a necessary component of any such plot. Otherwise Discern Location will find them. My personal plan would be a Soul Bind, then Gate or a couple Plane Shifts to drop it someplace extraplanar. Infinite planes that are very hazardous even to Epic characters are the best bets - Positive Energy, for example. Anybody who wants to raise THAT person has to search the entirety of the Positive Energy plane. Yeah right.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-20-04, 04:01 PM	Originally posted by Beamup My personal plan would be a Soul Bind, then Gate or a couple Plane Shifts to drop it someplace extraplanar. Infinite planes that are very hazardous even to Epic characters are the best bets - Positive Energy, for example. Anybody who wants to raise THAT person has to search the entirety of the Positive Energy plane. Yeah right. Bah, you can just cast Wish to get the gem back (unless it costs more than 25000gp, meaning the target had more than 25HD) ;) Actually, Wish states that it creates a nonmagical object of up to 25000gp, but summoning an already created object seems to be along the same lines.
Dread Lord 04-20-04, 04:01 PM	Somewhere in the Relics & Rituals book published by Sword & Sorcery there's a spell that shatters a soul and scatteres it accross the world. I don't remember the name but I'll try to find it. In theory you could go on a grand quest to find all the shards of the soul to bring the person back, but if the characters friends don't know what the spell did they wouldn't even know to start looking.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-20-04, 04:11 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Bah, you can just cast Wish to get the gem back (unless it costs more than 25000gp, meaning the target had more than 25HD) ;) Of course, if you enchant the gem as a Wondrous Item with Nytsul's Magic Aura and Nondetection, it could end up being worth more than 25,000gp right there.
Beamup 04-20-04, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Bah, you can just cast Wish to get the gem back (unless it costs more than 25000gp, meaning the target had more than 25HD) ;) Actually, Wish states that it creates a nonmagical object of up to 25000gp, but summoning an already created object seems to be along the same lines. I'd say that once the pearl has a soul in it, it's become magical. But yes, wish can in theory trump any arrangements you make. No way around that one.
Dread Lord 04-20-04, 04:28 PM	Ah, here we go. Shatter Soul Necromancy [Death] Level: Clr 9 Components: V,S, M, DF, XP Casting time: 1 full round Target: One living creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving throw: Fort negates Spell Resistance: Yes Long and short of it: If the save fails the targets soul is broken up into 2d6 shards that take up living in random creatures with in a 10 mile radius. True seeing will show a "soul bearer" as having something attached to it's soul. If a soul bearer dies the shard moves to a new host. The only way to bring this person back to life is to gather all the soul bearers into one small area and cast wish or miracle to bring the shards together and then a true resurection to bring the person back. Again, if the players don't know what happend then they won't even know to look for a soul bearer. Nor what they need to do if they find them. Buy this book. It has some really great spells in it. I give it two thumbs up.
Zherog 04-20-04, 04:42 PM	[off topic] While I agree that Relics and Rituals has some neat stuff in it, I find the book to be generally overpowered - at least when compared to the core rules. [/off topic]
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-20-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Best death in my 25 year gaming history. Beautiful. :weep: Simply beautiful. THAT's going in my DM book of "How To's". :D
Dread Lord 04-20-04, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by Zherog [off topic] While I agree that Relics and Rituals has some neat stuff in it, I find the book to be generally overpowered - at least when compared to the core rules. [/off topic] Oh yeah. Don't ever let your players take the prestege classes in this book, they're over the top. Some of the spells you should really think about first. But for the most part pulling one of these spells on you're players can really through them for a loop. There's one spell that reaies CHA like Bull's STR does for STR. Do not, do not let a sor gain more spells per day with this spell. There's one for INT too, but since a wiz needs to prepair spells ahead of time bonus spells per day for this spell can't be used within the spells duration.
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-20-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Dread Lord There's one spell that reaies CHA like Bull's STR does for STR. Do not, do not let a sor gain more spells per day with this spell. There's one for INT too, but since a wiz needs to prepair spells ahead of time bonus spells per day for this spell can't be used within the spells duration. Eagle's Splendor and Fox's Cunning? Those were originally in Tome & Blood, and are now in the 3.5 PHB.
Veton 04-20-04, 09:03 PM	Originally posted by Beamup My personal plan would be a Soul Bind, then Gate or a couple Plane Shifts to drop it someplace extraplanar. Infinite planes that are very hazardous even to Epic characters are the best bets - Positive Energy, for example. Anybody who wants to raise THAT person has to search the entirety of the Positive Energy plane. Yeah right. Isn't there a Protection from Positive Energy spell?
ThePope 04-21-04, 01:41 AM	yes there is but its got a duration of 1 round/level i believe... course i'm going off of a adventure book i have. the book also has a ring of positive protection though which would work better, along with a torture bracelet which basically hurts you enough to counter the bonus healing.