Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 05-08-06, 11:58 PM	If I am a 5th-level wizard and I come upon a scroll of a 4th or higher level spell (or pay for the privelage to copy it out of another wizard's spellbook), can I scribe it into my spellbook even though I would be unable to cast it at that time? I know you have to beat a Spellcraft check to first understand the spell, but as far as I can tell, that is the ONLY thing that might prevent me from doing this by the RAW. I ask because I have a 5th-level Enchanter (Evocation & Transmutation are prohibited) who will soon be going into the Red Wizard prestige class (DMG). When I take my first level of the class I have to take two more prohibited schools (I'm going to drop Abjuration and Conjuration). However, the text in the PrC says I can continue to use whatever Abjuration/Conjuration spells I knew prior to becoming a Red Wizard. I am hoping to get the following spells into my spellbook before losing access to those two schools. This way, I hope, I will have them in my repetoire ready to go when I gain the appropriate spellcasting level to actually use them. ABJURATION SPELLS • Dispel Magic (3) • Energy Immunity (7) • Greater Dispel Magic (6) • Mass Resist Energy (4) • Resist Energy (2) • Shield (1) CONJURATION SPELLS • Acid Breath (3) • Acid Fog (6) • Acid Sheath (5) • Acid Splash (0) • Acid Storm (6) • Corrosive Grasp (1) • Grease (1) • Lesser Orb of Acid (1) • Mage Armor (1) • Melf’s Acid Arrow (2) • Orb of Acid (4) • Vitriolic Sphere (5) Thanks in advance for helping me better understand the rules.
Loki5654 05-09-06, 12:17 AM	Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook: Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast. Since you haven't "double specialized" yet, there are no rules against what you want to do. My advice: Go wild.
Nom 05-09-06, 12:34 AM	The rules don't explicitly say that you can't. However, the "vibe" of PH pg 178-179 is that there's not a lot of difference between preparing a spell (to cast) and understanding a spell to write it into your book. See particularly "replacing and copying spellbooks" (PH pg 179). So I would rule that if you couldn't prepare it then you can't learn it either, and if you can't learn it then you can't write it to your book.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 12:38 AM	The rules don't explicitly say that you can't. However, the "vibe" of PH pg 178-179 is that there's not a lot of difference between preparing a spell (to cast) and understanding a spell to write it into your book. See particularly "replacing and copying spellbooks" (PH pg 179). So I would rule that if you couldn't prepare it then you can't learn it either, and if you can't learn it then you can't write it to your book. Thanks for the input, but I'm really only concerned with the RAW. Anybody else have any input on the matter? :confused:
shift244 05-09-06, 01:56 AM	You require INT of 10+Int bonus = spell level to gain access to a spell. You require caster level of spellcaster/2 (rounded up or down depending on class) to gain a necessary spell slot. I see nothing wrong with a level 1 Wizard with 18 Int scribing a level 8 spell if the checks pass... s/he just cannot garner enough power to prepare and actually cast it yet. There are various precedents where you have 0+1 spell slots where you have spells but 0 slots of the necessary level given by the class, but you can cast IF you have the appropriate bonus which provides the bonus spell slot of the specified level. This would lead one to draw a general conclusion that a wizard should be able scribe any level spell if s/he makes the check to scribe (and have the necessary INT?), but has no slots to prepare it yet. However, I would also point out that this feels weird... especially in relation to the PrC in concern. Also, technically by RAW does a wizard know any spells? A wizard can only prepare and cast spells from one's own spellbook. The wizard scribes the spells into this spellbook but does s/he know them? Note that the wizard cannot prepare spells that are not in a readily available spellbook scribed by him/her-self. A sorcerer on the other never forgets a known spell (unless specific cases arise). Can a sorcerer take levels in this PrC? If so, I feel that this line is put in place for Sorcerers who would have a big hit on usable spells, in certain spell selection combinations... not particularly for wizards.. who effectively should not be able to prepare a prohibited spell (is this written somewhere? I feel that it is, but I cannot recall exactly). In fact, I think that a Sorcerer should use the oppurunity provided to swap all new prohibited spells with something non-prohibited in any case..
risner 05-09-06, 02:15 AM	Thanks for the input, but I'm really only concerned with the RAW. Anybody else have any input on the matter? :confused: It seems to be rather clear to me the intent of the rules is to prevent what you are trying to do, and it seems very clear you are trying to dream up a loophole around the intent. I am sure there are a number of ways around various intended rules. That is why we usually have a panel of judges at contests (and courts) to determine if the intent of the rules have been broken. The glossary might be your best set of RAW to prevent what you are doing: PHB: known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. You can't cast a spell of higher level than your class allows at your level and your spellbook is a list of known spells. Knowing a spell means you can cast it. You are asking to add a spell to your spells known without being able to cast it. RAW specifically prevents that action when it comes up (an example is the Sand Shaper PrC which adds spells known to Sorcerers. It specifically states that these spells known do not get added to the list until the character is a sufficient level to cast spells of that level.
risner 05-09-06, 02:19 AM	There are various precedents where you have 0+1 spell slots where you have spells but 0 slots of the necessary level given by the class, but you can cast IF you have the appropriate bonus which provides the bonus spell slot of the specified level. Also, technically by RAW does a wizard know any spells? A wizard can only prepare and cast spells from one's own spellbook. The wizard scribes the spells into this spellbook but does s/he know them? There is a big difference between spells per day of "0" and "-". "0" means you have access to spells of X level, but have 0 available unless you have a high stat. "-" means you can not cast spells of that level. So your "precedent" doesn't help this situation. Wizards "know" all spells in their spellbooks by definition.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 02:37 AM	PHB: Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. So far, you have not shown me anything that prevents what I intend to do.
risner 05-09-06, 02:50 AM	So far, you have not shown me anything that prevents what I intend to do. Then you and I disagree. I also wouldn't allow what you want to do in my world.
shift244 05-09-06, 03:28 AM	Missed the part about known definition. My bad. So far, you have not shown me anything that prevents what I intend to do.What about risner's example of the Sand Shaper? Seems to me it can lead to a conclusion that you cannot scribe spells until you have slots per day for it.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 03:36 AM	Missed the part about known definition. My bad. What about risner's example of the Sand Shaper? Seems to me it can lead to a conclusion that you cannot scribe spells until you have slots per day for it. I'm not familiar with that Prestige Class, but I imagine it is from a splat book or online article of some kind, right? From the sound of it, the PrC comes with text that specifically alters the way the core rules would appear to work. If that is the case, the PrC is an exception called out by its own text. It is the best argument provided yet, but is still far from being hard evidence. As you said yourself, it could lead to a particular interpretation, but without any more real proof, the other interpretation remains just as valid.
Ynvaar 05-09-06, 08:31 AM	It seems to be rather clear to me the intent of the rules is to prevent what you are trying to do, and it seems very clear you are trying to dream up a loophole around the intent. I am sure there are a number of ways around various intended rules. That is why we usually have a panel of judges at contests (and courts) to determine if the intent of the rules have been broken. With respect Ravendark, I have to say I am inclined to agree with risners' assessment. Having said that, your DM is the final arbiter of what is and isn't allowed so if you can bully him/her into it by quoting a technicallity from the RAW then good luck to you. Seems like dirty pool to me though and I would not allow it either.
Need_A_Life 05-09-06, 08:43 AM	Sure, do it. Subject to DMs approval, however. Don't ask us, ask him/her
risner 05-09-06, 09:05 AM	I'm not familiar with that Prestige Class, but I imagine it is from a splat book or online article of some kind, right? From the sound of it, the PrC comes with text that specifically alters the way the core rules would appear to work. If that is the case, the PrC is an exception called out by its own text. It is from WOTC's Sandstorm p76 and it says: You cannot cast a spell of higher level than the maximum spell level you can cast. These spells become options for you when you gain access to the appropriate spell level.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 09:25 AM	It is from WOTC's Sandstorm p76 and it says: You cannot cast a spell of higher level than the maximum spell level you can cast. These spells become options for you when you gain access to the appropriate spell level. Okay. That's cool. But I still don't understand how that refutes my understanding of the rules. I know I will be unable to cast the high level spells until I get to the proper level. What I want to know is whether or not I can put them in my spellbook and, if I can, whether or not they count as "spells known." That is going to be what really counts when I go into the Red Wizard PrC. If anything, much of the material you have given me supports my initial view on the matter.
jokotoko 05-09-06, 09:59 AM	Raven Dark, I really don't understand why you are only interested in the RAW, since the same RAW can produce things like Pun-Pun. It seems clear to me, and most other people that responded in this thread, that the purpose of the Red Wizard PrC is to let you make an offer (two schools) for more power in another school. You're just trying to find a loophole to get the benefit without the costs. Any sane DM wouldn't allow it.
tarkin 05-09-06, 10:37 AM	1) Yes you can put it in your book. 2) Your book is NOT a magic item. The mere fact that it is in your book, does not mean you can cast it. You will not be able to cast this spell, ever. The problem is you are thinking of the spell book as a magic item, that anything in it you can cast. That is false. To cast a spell you need all of the following: 1) To have the spell on your list 2) To have a stat (int) high enough to cast it 3) To have a spell slot available to cast it. 4) To KNOW the spell. 5) If you are a wizard, you must either have the spell Mastered, or have a written copy to help you prepare it. #4 is the killer. You are thinking that you can KNOW the spell simply by copying it into your book. That is false. You can not Know a spell unless you are high enough level to cast it. The fact that words are written into your spell book is practically meaningless - the spell book is not magical. Yes, you can put it in your book, but as per official rules, you can not know it, and therefore can NEVER cast it. No Strict or Loose DM will ever let you use this. A Power DM might House Rule to let you do this for small, minor things - he will not let you get away with this to learn a 9th level spell. An Anything Goes DM will say SURE, let you do it, then find a way to womp your butt anyway. P.S. RAW is unplayable, no one every uses RAW, even the people that think they play using RAW. Look up the condition "Dead". Notice it does not mention that you can't attack/move/cast spells. The idea that dead people can't act is IMPLIED by the game, not in RAW. The game is designed for a thinking person to adminster the rules, and much of it is stated using poor grammer.
ClementWillowbreaker 05-09-06, 10:44 AM	To the OP, you do know that Red Wizards are only supposed to give up one more school, not two, when they Enhance Specialize, right? In which case, you can just hang onto this scroll, because you can give up the other school instead.
risner 05-09-06, 12:30 PM	I think I have the RAW thanks to tarkin. You can only cast Known spells. You can only know a spell as a Wizard if it is IN your spellbook and you can learn/prepare the spell. You can never learn spells on a prohibited school as a Red Wizard. Ergo, you can scribe spells into a spellbook before entering Red Wizard, but if you couldn't cast those spell before entering Red Wizard, you will (by RAW) never be able to cast them despite them being in your spell book, because you can't add them to your spells KNOWN list (because as a Wizard spells known means it must be in a spell book and you must be able to prepare the spell.) What I want to know is whether or not I can put them in my spellbook and, if I can, whether or not they count as "spells known." That is going to be what really counts when I go into the Red Wizard PrC. So, as an answer: 1) It would appear you can add it to your spell book. 2) It would not count as a spell KNOWN when added if you can't learn/prepare the spell. 3) Once you hit Red Wizard, you would never be able to then add that spell to your KNOWN list (it would forever sit in a spellbook taking up space.)
Kyuketsukiouji 05-09-06, 12:52 PM	PHB: Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. So far, you have not shown me anything that prevents what I intend to do. That's because you're doing everything you can not to see the rule stopping you. Having the spell in your book is not enough. You also have to be able to prepare it.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 01:23 PM	That's because you're doing everything you can not to see the rule stopping you. Having the spell in your book is not enough. You also have to be able to prepare it. Finally, somone who knows how to show evidence properly... To the OP, you do know that Red Wizards are only supposed to give up one more school, not two, when they Enhance Specialize, right? In which case, you can just hang onto this scroll, because you can give up the other school instead. That is a debatable topic and many people would disagree with you. It has something to do with the text being copied and pasted from v3.0 rules to v3.5 without changing, whereas the specializing/prohibited schools rules did change. The only time you would choose one additional school as you say is if you play a diviner/Red Wizard. In any case, my DM's interpretation is the harsher one. :(
Molitor 05-09-06, 02:18 PM	What I want to know is whether or not I can put them in my spellbook and, if I can, whether or not they count as "spells known." PHB page 310 "Known spell": blah,blah,blah...has learned and can prepare.
The_WhiteRabbit 05-09-06, 02:50 PM	PHB page 310 "Known spell": blah,blah,blah...has learned and can prepare. While I agree that the character must be able to prepare the spell for it ot count as a known spell for a Wizard, the definition is contradictory in the case of a Sorcerer. By that definition, a Sorcerer without the Arcane Preperation feat has no known spells, because otherwise a Sorcerer is unable to prepare any spells. However, to the OP: The definition of a known spell on p. 310 of the Player's Handbook does keep you from using the trick you'd like to use.
Molitor 05-09-06, 03:30 PM	While I agree that the character must be able to prepare the spell for it ot count as a known spell for a Wizard, the definition is contradictory in the case of a Sorcerer. By that definition, a Sorcerer without the Arcane Preperation feat has no known spells, because otherwise a Sorcerer is unable to prepare any spells. There is more printed in the PHB I only sited what was relavent.
RogerWilco 05-09-06, 03:54 PM	So the conclusion is that on a succesfull spellcraft check he could write them into his spellbook, but never cast any of them for levels higher than when he enters the PrC ?
redarius 05-09-06, 04:35 PM	So the conclusion is that on a succesfull spellcraft check he could write them into his spellbook, but never cast any of them for levels higher than when he enters the PrC ? That is the conclusion I would reach, yes. Mostly given Tarkin's response, but also what Raven Dark is trying to do here is ridiculous and grossly abusive of the RAW. There is some advantage to being able to copy down a higher level spell... heck, if you're willing to spend the cost/page to get it into your book you can resell access to the spell for other wizards or be able to memorize it without having to search for it later as you gain levels.
mvincent 05-09-06, 04:58 PM	So the conclusion is that on a succesfull spellcraft check he could write them into his spellbookThat's not what I get from RAW. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSp ellbook) say: "Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook." To understand a spell: "the wizard must first decipher the magical writing" "She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook" "Learn" and "understand" appear to be used as synonyms here, so it seems a wizard could not scribe any spells from her prohibited schools into her spellbook.
UZI 05-09-06, 05:13 PM	I'd have to agree with the conclusion that a spell in one's own spellbook is "known", and that there is nothing restricting a wizard from knowing higher level spells than he can cast. Copying a spell into a spellbook places the spell in a state understood by the wizard. Trying to prepare from another's spellbook requires spellcraft checks. The spellcraft check to copy the spell represents the wizard gaining knowledge of the spell, which can be attempted again after the wizard gains a level.
risner 05-09-06, 08:44 PM	I'd have to agree with the conclusion that a spell in one's own spellbook is "known", and that there is nothing restricting a wizard from knowing higher level spells than he can cast. If your conclusion is that any spell in a spell book for a Wizard is known, that is in direct violation of the Glossary definition of "known" spell for Wizards. (PHB p310) Also from the DMG "Wizards must learn new spells and add them to their spellbook" (DMG p110.) Using your "if it is in my spellbook, I know it" policy would not require the separation of "must learn" and "add them to their spellbook". They would simply had said "Wizards must add new spells to their spellbook".
The_WhiteRabbit 05-09-06, 09:41 PM	There is more printed in the PHB I only sited what was relavent. Yes, I know. I read the full version before I posted my response. The bit about preparation isn't specific to Wizards--it's in the glossary definition and applies equally to Sorcerers and Wizards. Just another example of the RAW requiring interpretation to be used properly. Please note that this still doesn't validate the OP's idea.
Molitor 05-09-06, 09:44 PM	@Raven Dark: Have you asked your DM?
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 11:27 PM	...it seems a wizard could not scribe any spells from her prohibited schools into her spellbook. I just wanted to make it absolutley clear that, that is not what I am trying to do. The spells I wish to add to my spellbook are NOT considered prohibited at the time I scribe them into my book. The only questions that I am trying to have answered by creating this thread are: 1) Can a 5th level wizard scribe a 4th-level (or higher) spell into his/her spellbook? 2) Is a spell successfully scribed into the wizard's spellbook considered a known spell? 3) If the spell is "known" and scribed into the spellbook, can the wizard cast it at the appropriate caster level once reached? 4) If so, would the sudden acquisition of new prohibited schools prevent the wizard from casting the spell even though it is scribed into the spellbook and considered "known?" POP QUIZ I'm a 5th level Enchanter with Evocation and Transmutation as my prohibited schools. I expend 8,700gp for the privilidge of copying the above listed spells (in the OP) into my spellbook (this includes costs for scribing materials). By the RAW, the spells are now in my spellbook (assuming I passed all Spellcraft checks). Once I get to 6th level I take my first level in Red Wizard and choose Abjuration and Conjuration as my NEW prohibited schools. When I become a 7th-level spellcaster, can I cast Orb of Acid and Mass Resist Energy? Why or why not? That, ladies in gentlemen, is what the core of this thread is all about.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 11:37 PM	@Raven Dark: Have you asked your DM? Not yet, but I expect him to visit this evening. I shall point him to this thread and make my case. Would you like me to post his decision on here (and his reasoning behind it) for all of you to see? :D
Raven Dark 05-10-06, 02:35 AM	I asked my DM about it and he said I could acquire AND use the spells. Even so, wanting him to make an informed decision, I brought him to this thread. After reading this... Definition of a Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. ...and this... Enhanced Specialization: Upon becoming a Red Wizard, a character increases his devotion to his wizard school of specialization. In exchange for this, the Red Wizard must sacrifice study in one or more schools. The Red Wizard must choose an additional prohibited school or schools using the rules in the Player's Handbook. He can never again learn spells from those prohibited schools. He cannot choose the same prohibited schools he chose as a 1st-level wiazard. He can still use the prohibited spells he knew prior to becoming a Red Wizard, including using items that are activated by spell completion and spell trigger. ...he reversed his decision and said that I could NOT cast the spells I wanted, unless I held off my entrance into the Red Wizard prestige class. For the purposes of our game, that's all there is to it. Still, it is obvious you have to understand a spell to put it into your spellbook. Nobody here is disputing that I can put a high level spell into my spellbook. How is it then, that you can understand a spell, but not know the spell? That doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. My character's fate is set, but I still hope the discussion continues. :D
Molitor 05-10-06, 03:36 AM	That doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. I agree!
risner 05-10-06, 04:20 AM	Still, it is obvious you have to understand a spell to put it into your spellbook. Nobody here is disputing that I can put a high level spell into my spellbook. How is it then, that you can understand a spell, but not know the spell? That doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. Using your logic, a 1st level Sorcerer could be given (if money was no issue) a Knowstone of Timestop and cast it at 1st level. Knowstone adds the spell "Timestop" to the spells known list right? So I should be able to cast it right? No spell can be considered known unless you can cast the spell and you can't cast spells higher level than the highest level spell you can cast. Having a Knowstone of a spell you COULD cast does add the spell to your spells known list, but if the Knowstone is of a level of spell higher than your highest, it does not add to the spells known list.
UZI 05-10-06, 07:54 AM	...must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. ... If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook ... The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. The above text only applies to a wizard-like caster. also, consider this on school specialization Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later. And that references nothing about knowing the spells...
Merestil Haye 05-10-06, 08:39 AM	also, consider this on school specializationSpells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.And that references nothing about knowing the spells...It does not need to. A prerequisite of being able to know the spell is having it on your class spell list, not the other way round. A specialist can never know a spell from a aforbidden school because it is not on his class spell list by virtue of being in a forbidden school.
MrkGrismer 05-10-06, 03:41 PM	Okay, I am going to dispute that you can copy a spell that you cannot cast into spellbook. I think the RAW is that you cannot, but it is certainly not clear on it, here is why: Replacing and Copying Spellbooks A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book. Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved. Obviously this means that you cannot copy a spell that has not been prepared into a spellbook, unless possibly you have it in a borrowed spellbok (or possibly a scroll). So let's look at that: Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. Note that the bold section has a correspondance with: Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.) The difficulty here is that the text should take more pains to explain that "understand" means "be able to prepare". Also note that this block makes no mention that the spell must be of a level the wizard is able to cast. Since we know that a wizard cannot prepare a spell he is unable to cast we also know that this section implies that a wizard still cannot prepare a spell he is unable to cast even if it is from a borrowed spellbook. Since we know this is true, and it is readily apparent that the learn/understand and prepare process is virutally the same (my assumption is that during the day spent studying, the spell is effectively prepared and then dispersed, the same as replicating a lost spellbook). So we have a three steps: 1. Decipher Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll. 2. Prepare or understand (learn) If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast. Spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook or If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. 3. Write the spell into the spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. Thus I would have to say that any interpretation that would let you put a spell in your spellbook that you cannot cast would also allow you to prepare a spell that you cannot cast.
tarkin 05-10-06, 03:54 PM	The basic problem is that people use the books to literally, don't use ANY judgement and then say "the book doesn't say I can't do this". You are allowed to multi-class to an Assasin/Wizard. Spellbooks are not magical in any way shape or form, so you may quite easily make a single spellbook having all your spells. But spells you know in one class are NOT castable in all your classes. To prepare it in a wizard slot you must KNOW it as a wizard spell, and to prepare it in an assasin slot, you must KNOW it as a Assasin. That means it is not enough to "know" a spells, and have them in your spellbook. You must instead know the spell as part of your class. And you are not allowed to know a spell if it is: A) too high a level in your spell book., B) of a level that your stat is not high enough for. C) not in your spell list at all Merely having a spell written in your spell book is not enough. That does NOT mean you 'know the spell for all classes'. Yes, you may copy a spell into your book, but that does not mean you know it. Having it in your spell book is often used as a 'shortcut' by WOTC when they really mean: Learn/Know the spell for this particular class. Yes this is poor grammer on WoTC's part. So what? Their grammer sucks for everything.
UZI 05-10-06, 10:56 PM	Preparing a spell from another's spellbook is entirely different from copying from another's spellbook. When preparing from another's spellbook, you don't have to spend time studying the spell if it is one you already had copied into yours (that is, if it is one you had previously learned). You cannot prepare an "unknown" spell from another's spellbook, you must have successfully studied the spell before to be able to prepare it, regardless of whether its from your own book, or another's. When it's from another's book, you have an added difficulty of deciphering it (must like a scroll). When copying a "new" spell from another's spellbook, you can only learn one new one per day (even if it is "Power Word: Kill", which incidentally must be in a very large font, since it takes up 9 pages). Nothing in the text seems to prevent learning (from a scroll or another's spellbook) a spell you cannot cast due to being too low a level. Spells form prohibited schools, however, are impossible to learn. When rebuilding a spellbook, any prepared spell can be written into the new spellbook (including ones prepared from another's spellbook, which by definition, must be one's that were in the old spellbook in order to be prepared from the borrowed book). If a wizard cannot prepare a lost spellbook's spell (by being too low a level to prepare it from some other source), and now cannot "re-learn" the spell due to it being in a prohibited school for his new prestige class, he must wait until he can prepare spells of that level, then must find a spellbook with the spell before he can prepare the known spell and then place it into his new spellbook.
MrkGrismer 05-11-06, 10:59 AM	Nothing in the text seems to prevent learning (from a scroll or another's spellbook) a spell you cannot cast due to being too low a level. Spells form prohibited schools, however, are impossible to learn. The quotes I posted was to show that nothing in the text seems to prevent preparing (from another's spellbook) a spell you cannot cast due to being too low a level. Spells from prohibited schools, however, are impossible to prepare. Since we know that this is not possible, a reasonable person should be expected to know that learning a spell you cannot cast is also not possible.
risner 05-11-06, 01:40 PM	The quotes I posted was to show that nothing in the text seems to prevent preparing (from another's spellbook) a spell you cannot cast due to being too low a level. Spells from prohibited schools, however, are impossible to prepare. And we see in every PrC that adds spells "known", it states you can only add the spells to your spells known list IF you are sufficient level to cast a spell of that level. Also Uzi, you are wrong. You have to make the check every time you try to prepare a spell from another's spellbook. So preparing from a borrowed book is nearly identical to copying from another's spellbook. Using borrowed books to prepare spells: PHB p178 "the reader must make a Spellcraft check ... to prepare the spell. ... She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day." This WHOLE THREAD is a rehash of the "how do I get level 2 spells at level 1" quest using extra spell feat and other cheese.
UZI 05-12-06, 07:45 AM	When preparing from another's spellbook, if the spell is one that was in your own spellbook, you only have to make a spellcraft check to prepare it, not spend a day studying it. When copying a new spell from another's spellbook, you need to spend a day studying it and make a spellcraft check. Any spell you have prepared can be scribed into a new spellbook. For learning a new spell, or copying a new from another's spellbook, there is nothing written about having to prepare the spell first. The specific conditions the original poster asked about is whether he could "learn" a spell of a level too high for him to cast before he takes a level in Red Wizard which requires him to lose access to two schools of magic, but allows him to keep access to spells he already knew in those schools. Basically he can learn no more spells from those schools, nor cast spells from wands or scrolls unless he already knew them. Learning a spell doesn't require preparation, it requires a day of study and a spellcraft check. Preparing a spell cannot be done unless the caster already has studied the spell and can be done off of his own spellbook (and has a slot to put it in), or from another's spellbook with a simple spellcraft check. A known spell can be scribed into a new spellbook if it has been prepared. The poster didn't want to cast the spells before their time, he wanted to add them as spells known so once he could cast them, they'd be available, knowing he'd be unable to learn them in the future.
Merestil Haye 05-12-06, 08:56 AM	When preparing from another's spellbook, if the spell is one that was in your own spellbook, you only have to make a spellcraft check to prepare it, not spend a day studying it. When copying a new spell from another's spellbook, you need to spend a day studying it and make a spellcraft check. Any spell you have prepared can be scribed into a new spellbook. For learning a new spell, or copying a new from another's spellbook, there is nothing written about having to prepare the spell first. The specific conditions the original poster asked about is whether he could "learn" a spell of a level too high for him to cast before he takes a level in Red Wizard which requires him to lose access to two schools of magic, but allows him to keep access to spells he already knew in those schools. Basically he can learn no more spells from those schools, nor cast spells from wands or scrolls unless he already knew them. Learning a spell doesn't require preparation, it requires a day of study and a spellcraft check. Preparing a spell cannot be done unless the caster already has studied the spell and can be done off of his own spellbook (and has a slot to put it in), or from another's spellbook with a simple spellcraft check. A known spell can be scribed into a new spellbook if it has been prepared. The poster didn't want to cast the spells before their time, he wanted to add them as spells known so once he could cast them, they'd be available, knowing he'd be unable to learn them in the future.The point people are trying to explain to you is that in order to know a spell, one must have the capacity to prepare or cast it in order to learn the spell. This is clear from the definition of "known spell" which statesA spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. In short, if you do not have spell slots of a level required to prepare / cast the spell you cannot learn it in the first place. The DM can always houserule the other way, but it would be a houserule.
risner 05-12-06, 09:18 AM	The poster didn't want to cast the spells before their time, he wanted to add them as spells known so once he could cast them, they'd be available, knowing he'd be unable to learn them in the future. He can't add them to spells known without learning the spell (make spellcraft check) AND being able to prepare the spell (not a prohibited school and high enough level.) Red Wizard prevents him from learning prohibited spells, so even if he has them in his spellbook, he can never add them to spells known if he didn't already have them on spells known when he entered Red Wizard. Known = Learned & can be Prepared UZI, no matter how hard you work on that square peg, it isn't going in that round hole.
Vegepygmy 05-12-06, 06:21 PM	The only argument I have seen that is persuasive to me at all that the OP's plan won't work is the glossary definition of "known spell," and that is highly suspect because its very first sentence is wrong on its face: "A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare." As has already been pointed out, this would mean that sorcerers and other arcanists who don't prepare their spells don't know any spells. And we know that to be false. Therefore, we cannot consider that first sentence in a vacuum. We must look to all of the other rules to determine what was really meant. All of the other rules seem to support the OP's interpretation, including the very next sentence in the glossary definition: "For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks." I'd have to conclude that yes, a wizard can add a spell to his spellbook that is presently above his ability to cast. And yes, that spell is "known" to him, even though he cannot yet prepare it. And yes, since it was known to him before it became prohibited, he would be able to cast it once his caster level becomes high enough. Is it a loophole? Yep. Big enough to drive a truck through. But it's there.
risner 05-12-06, 07:18 PM	Therefore, we cannot consider that first sentence in a vacuum. We must look to all of the other rules to determine what was really meant. You are missreading the glossary. PHB p310: known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement Here is how you parse it: If Prepared Caster: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare and in one of their spellbooks. You may also interpret from this (and I do) that you must be able to prepare a spell to have it in your spellbook (so you can't copy higher level spells into your spellbook if you are not of the level to cast them.) If Spontaneous Caster: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can spontaneous cast. This means the spell must have been selected when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.
Watchdog_of_Hades 05-13-06, 10:15 AM	Watch me win the argument. Here's what you do. You lend your spellbook to the wizard you want to copy from and pay him (in coin or privelege of copying spells from your spellbook) to scribe the spells from his book into yours. Ta-da!
Darth_Azalin 05-13-06, 11:35 AM	1. Its up too your DM.. he could say sorry fighters you don't get your bonus feats per level.. and theres nothing but not sitting at the table and not playing that you can do... Remember Rule 0 ... 2. If you had the spell and the enough intelligence.. you could cast the spell right then and there.. no reason to believe that you couldn't scribe it into your book if 1. you had enough pages and 2. the materials too do so... So if those spells aren't prohibited ATM then there is nothing short of a DM ruling that would stop you...
risner 05-13-06, 03:52 PM	Watch me win the argument. Here's what you do. You lend your spellbook to the wizard you want to copy from and pay him (in coin or privelege of copying spells from your spellbook) to scribe the spells from his book into yours. Ta-da! Busted, Complete Arcane p140: Mastering a Foreign Spellbook 2. If you had the spell and the enough intelligence.. you could cast the spell right then and there.. no reason to believe that you couldn't scribe it into your book if 1. you had enough pages and 2. the materials too do so... So if those spells aren't prohibited ATM then there is nothing short of a DM ruling that would stop you... You can't cast spells higher level than you can cast, so he couldn't cast it "then and there". Or did I get confused as to what you were responding?