Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radablast 12-19-06, 12:56 PM	Can you use a fly spell under water? Let's say that the PC casts fly on himself on dry land, and then decides to fly into the water. Would the PC be able to propel himself underwater with the fly spell or would he then have to swim? I would say he could still use the fly spell, granted with less movement due to water resistance. To me, it's not a natural fly, but a magical affect that allows the PC to fly. The water is just an obstacle to hamper movement. My DM says no, that the character would then have to do a swim check while under water, but once he broke the surface, he would be able to fly once again. From my DM: "So in a nutshell, we need to understand that when maneuvering in water, we need to do a swim check unless we have a swim speed. If you wish to burrow, you need a shovel unless you have a burrowspeed. If you wish to climb, you need to make a climb check unless you have aclimb speed. If you wish to fly, you need to ride on a flying mount unless youhave a fly speed. Really though, it all comes down to movement and what kindsyou have. Your PC has a FLY Speed and a Speed (normal) when under theinfluence of the spell – he can do any or the two. It doesn’t help him swim, climb or burrow. Think of it as the spell needs air justlike wings do. The spell trusts you with the propulsion of air. When in water,you don’t have the needed air to propel you thus it is useless while inwater. You cannot think of yourself as superman." Opinions?
Knight0 12-19-06, 01:00 PM	Fly != Swim Air != Water Different propulsion methods are required to move through these two mediums. (Sorry about the C code)
Salla 12-19-06, 01:05 PM	I would let a character use Fly underwater, though at the reduced speed as comparing walking to swimming (1/4, IIRC) to account for the water resistance. Unless a spell specifies that it operates differently, or doesn't operate, underwater (or has the Fire descriptor), it operates underwater just as well as it does above water.
Thomas_Covenant 12-19-06, 01:10 PM	The DM may conceivably be correct from a RAW perspective, but I'd never rule that way, it visually makes no sense. Simply, if you can nimbly propel yourself through the air at a fast sprint speed in any direction by will alone, I don't see a need for swim checks. Water would slow you down more than air, and I'd probably have to figure out some house rule on that, but I can't imagine asking a PC with wingless flight to make a swim check with a straight face......unless he was trying to swim a waterfall, or the like. Winged flight speed, yeah, you're hosed. Wingless....imho, you are Superman, just (much) slower.
Loki5654 12-19-06, 01:10 PM	Fly A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows: Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground. Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability. Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird. Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird. Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all. A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line. The Fly special ability specifically states "through the air". So, no you cannot Fly under water.
CantripN 12-19-06, 01:14 PM	Just get a Necklace of Adaptation. It surrounds you with a bubble of Air, so you can fly normally, and it's useful anyway. SRD: Necklace of Adaptation This necklace is a heavy chain with a platinum medallion. The magic of the necklace wraps the wearer in a shell of fresh air, making him immune to all harmful vapors and gases (such as cloudkill and stinking cloud effects, as well as inhaled poisons) and allowing him to breathe, even underwater or in a vacuum. Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, alter self; Price 9,000 gp.
dorpond 12-19-06, 02:33 PM	In D&D we have strict modes of movement. Take a look at any creature in the MM and you will see one or more of the following modes of movement: Speed Swim Burrow Climb Fly Speed is land speed. If you have a form of speed above, you do not need to make a check (for the most part). For example, if you have a swim speed, you do not have to make a swim check to move. The rules are very concrete in this area and this is needed to prevent issues that Radablast brings up. Now, looking at the Fly spell I think it specifically states that he gets the Fly speed of 60, am I right? As a DM, I see Radablast now has a Speed 30 and a Fly 60. It does NOT give him a swim speed. Erase the thought that you are Superman - Superman could fly underwater; in D&D we are bound to mechanics and mechanically speaking, you are gaining a Fly speed. Nobody knows what is really going on with magic and I am sure there could be an arguement where people claim they do know magic but the fact is, we don't know if the Fly spell works by propelling air or doing something with gravity - we just don't know. All we do know is that we are gaining a fly speed of 60 and a fly speed does not help you swim. So memorize your water spells Radablast!
Inigo Carmine 12-19-06, 03:14 PM	From my DM: "So in a nutshell, we need to understand that when maneuvering in water, we need to do a swim check unless we have a swim speed. If you wish to burrow, you need a shovel unless you have a burrowspeed. If you wish to climb, you need to make a climb check unless you have aclimb speed. If you wish to fly, you need to ride on a flying mount unless youhave a fly speed. Really though, it all comes down to movement and what kindsyou have. Your PC has a FLY Speed and a Speed (normal) when under theinfluence of the spell – he can do any or the two. It doesn’t help him swim, climb or burrow. Actually, your DM is wrong about climbing and swimming. Whether you have a listed speed in those areas or not, you do need to make a check. However, you usually get a large bonus, and can always choose to take 10.
mvincent 12-19-06, 03:43 PM	Ah. This one was debated at length and in considerable detail (here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=1032)). Basically, many (or even most) players would say no, however the Sage has said (in the 3.0 FAQ): "Flying creatures must swim when they enter the water, just as other creatures do. A fly spell lets you swim at your normal flying speed, but with the same maneuverability as other swimmers (perfect maneuverability). Incorporeal creatures also can fly/swim in this manner (they move through water just as easily as they move through other substances)." 3.0 material (including the FAQ) is generally considered viable for 3.5 until something updates/overrules it or they are otherwise no longer applicable. Also, the position appears to at least be defendable by the rules (see the above mentioned thread for many points on this). However, this is a case where I'd recommend asking your DM. Since he has ruled on it for the OP (and many would view it as a reasonable ruling), this is likely all moot.
dorpond 12-19-06, 03:54 PM	I believe though that flying didn't have all the rule mechanics in 3.0 as it does now with 3.5. We have facing, turning speeds, flying up, flying down, hovering, etc. In 3.0, flying was very generic. In 3.5 it is precise. Now, let us say that the DM allows flying to be used underwater. Now all the rules get botched up. Now, does the player not follow the "good", "perfect" and other flying rules or does he follow the swimming rules as if he was not flying? It just doesn't make sense to allow a flying person to swim. Swimming always works off of a characters speed. If I have a movement of 30' then that movement is figured in when I swim. If I enhance my movement to 40 then unless the spell says otherwise, I can use that enhanced speed because it is based off of my speed. We have never been able to use a birds fly speed to swim nor have we been able to use a creatures burrow speed or climb speed to swim - swimming is always based off or your speed. Flying spell gives you a flying speed and does not change your "speed".
mvincent 12-19-06, 04:29 PM	I believe though that flying didn't have all the rule mechanics in 3.0 as it does now with 3.5.It appears that it did. See here (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/SRDCarryingMovingSeeing.rtf). We have never been able to use a birds fly speed to swim nor have we been able to use a creatures burrow speed or climb speed to swimThere is precendent for using speeds in alternate mediums (example: the rules allow one to use their ground speed to walk through water, and to use their burrow speed to move through material that isn't actually dirt). I'm not saying to allow it, I'm just saying it is subject to debate and both sides are defensible. I'm also not insisting that you take my word for it or read the thread that I provided (which covered all this already), but if you do neither then I could not be expected to take your counter-argument seriously.
solbergb 12-19-06, 06:27 PM	FAQ 3.0 said yes. FAQ 3.5 is silent, but my experience is most DM's don't allow it because of spells that give swim speeds which do exist n the game.
redraven 12-19-06, 07:46 PM	I would allow the PC to use their Fly speed underwater as long as the effect does not depend on wings for propulsion. "Flying" underwater would still require Swim checks to determine how far they are able to move in a given round, however - DC 10 for moving one-quarter speed as a move action in calm water, for example. Failing the check has the same penalties: no movement.
mvincent 12-19-06, 08:08 PM	FAQ 3.0 said yes. FAQ 3.5 is silentIf I may: I'd like to branch off into a side discussion on 3.0 FAQ information (only because I'm unsure where else to place this): I used to assume that the 3.0 FAQ was invalid for 3.5, but after much research I concluded that it is completely valid for 3.5 unless superceded. (Note: this is all rules-lawyer stuff anyways... don't assume that it has to apply to any particular game). The reasons: 1) None of the 3.0 FAQ clarifications were not carried over into 3.5 2) Many of those clarifications were still needed (and very useful) 3) As a general WotC rule, all 3.0 material was declared as useable in 3.5 unless superceded (i.e. invalidated in some way). Although this is contrary to what a lot of players believe, I'm presenting my conclusion (just to the strict rules-lawyers among us) that 3.0 clarifications still apply until shown otherwise.
squfof 12-19-06, 08:46 PM	My two cents: In the DMG (p.92), freedom of movement (and not fly) is mentioned as a way to move in water without swim checks or speed reduction. It also says, "When underwater, characters can move in any direction as if they were flying with perfect maneurverability." Clearly flying was in mind when this section of the DMG was written but the spell fly was not mentioned as a means to permit or improve movement, though freedom of movement is. So I'd say the intent is to get people to use swim or freedom of movement and I'd rule that you cannot use fly underwater.
redraven 12-20-06, 02:40 AM	So I'd say the intent is to get people to use swim or freedom of movement and I'd rule that you cannot use fly underwater. Unless, of course, you could use the fly spell but still be subject to Swim checks.
mvincent 12-20-06, 01:25 PM	Curious: would anyone here restrict the levitate spell from being useable underwater?
Kimokeo 12-20-06, 04:36 PM	Let's say elf mage, movement rate of 30' casts fly and underwater breathing. By opinion, he can't fly because he's underwater. He needs to use the swim mode of movement. So, with that logic, the elf cannot walk along the bottom of the ocean at land speed because he's underwater. He must use a swim mode. That's stupid. A mage flies magically - there are no wings. The movement is, simply put, magical. I'd allow movement underwater, impeded just as if the character was flying through jello on the surface. The mage can break the jello with his airspeed but there is resistance. The character can try going through the ground as it he were burrowing by using his fly movement. I guarantee he will hurt himself at 60'/rnd, but he can try. Is swim mode only for water or all liquids? Is flying only in the air or what happens if your air consists of different elements? You can burrow, but does that include rock, dirt, sand, shadows, jello, mud, ice? I'd allow it.
mvincent 12-20-06, 05:25 PM	So, with that logic, the elf cannot walk along the bottom of the ocean at land speed because he's underwater.Excellent post (it gives some things to ponder). Note though that the core rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm)actually do cover (and provide rules for) walking along the bottom of the ocean. Hm... I just noticed something on the Combat Adjustments Underwater table: The "None of the above" condition seems to allow movement at your normal speed. Is that a mistake?
solbergb 12-20-06, 07:41 PM	My take is freedom of movement would let you fly underwater, just as it lets you walk at the bottom without any penalties. My instinct would be that powered flight such as fly spell or what will-o-wisp does would work underwater, but be slower. But that's just me making up rules, there isn't any actual rules support in 3.5
User5127 12-20-06, 10:09 PM	I'm just wondering what people would rule for creature with ONLY a fly speed? seriously. some creautre only have a fly speed. so can they not swim? imo you can use any of your faster modes of movement underwater to move, but you must still make a swim check as per normal. the swim speed just lets you move with out that check.
Nezkrul 12-20-06, 11:35 PM	I'm just wondering what people would rule for creature with ONLY a fly speed? seriously. some creautre only have a fly speed. so can they not swim? imo you can use any of your faster modes of movement underwater to move, but you must still make a swim check as per normal. the swim speed just lets you move with out that check. Like a beholder? Their movement speed is their fly speed, so when they try to "swim" that's the speed they modify with their swim check, because they have no other form of movement.
User5127 12-21-06, 10:09 AM	exactly! beholders, demi-liches, energons, etc.
Kimokeo 12-21-06, 10:41 AM	It's not really flying. It's moving through the air magically without the usual fear of falling. If you paralyze a wizard under the effects of a Fly spell, does he fall to the ground? The Fly special ability specifically states "through the air". So, no you cannot Fly under water. The Swim skill refers to water. If you are in any other kind of liquid, you will drown because your swim skill only applies to water. So, a pool of oil, you can't use a swim skill. A pool of chocolate? Nope. Pool of milk? Nope. Pool of orange juice? Nope. The skill also states you can navigate underwater obstacles. If the obstacle is floating on top of the water, you cannot swim around it because the Swim skill doesn't state you can, it only stays you can swim around UNDERWATER obstacles.
squfof 12-21-06, 11:43 AM	Using a Swim check with fly doesn't make much sense to me. The Swim check indicates your success or failure after making the effort to move in some direction through water (or, I think, any other liquid it is physically possible to swim in), while fly is effortless -- you pick a direction and then will yourself to move. Combining these two would go something like this: make a Swim check to see if you were successful with your effort to Swim; if you succeed, then you swam some distance; but wait, now you invoke fly, which allows you to move without effort; now that you are moving with fly, you begin to wonder why you made all that effort to swim since fly is so effortless, does Swim just get you started?; next turn, all the sudden you have to put effort into swimming again, somehow fly isn't working!; if the next Swim check is successful, fly starts to work again.... I think the best solutions are: your DM rules that you can use fly, or use Swim/freedom of movement. Also: You walk along the bottom of the ocean at half your speed, and only if you are sufficiently weighed down. I'm not sure that would require a Swim check. Finally: A beholder has both a land and fly speed. Land: 5 ft, Fly: 20 ft. On the other hand, an arrowhawk has only a fly speed: 60 ft. Consider a hawk (has both land and fly speeds) -- can it swim? The answer is no. Most flying insects that hit the water...die. Most "real life" flyers, whether or not they have a land speed, cannot swim. Of course, the DM can rule that flyers in D&D can, just as the DM can rule that you can use fly underwater, but I would not.
mvincent 12-21-06, 11:43 AM	If you paralyze a wizard under the effects of a Fly spell, does he fall to the ground?Technically yes. Not everyone plays that way, but by strict interpretation: the fly spell treats you like any other being with a fly speed except where specifically noted otherwise. I can provide links to long, detailed, conclusive discussions on this if desired.
mvincent 12-21-06, 11:52 AM	Consider a hawk (has both land and fly speeds) -- can it swim? The answer is no.From the Manual of the Planes - Elemental Plane of Water: "Those with fly speeds can fly at half their normal rate, and their maneuverability is reduced one grade"
Kimokeo 12-21-06, 04:20 PM	Technically yes. Not everyone plays that way, but by strict interpretation: the fly spell treats you like any other being with a fly speed except where specifically noted otherwise. I can provide links to long, detailed, conclusive discussions on this if desired. The Fly spell, per the PHB, states "requires only as much concentration as walking." Paralyzed in the PHB definitions states "A paralyzed character has" dex & str zero " but can take purely mental actions. Strict interpretation? I guess if you figure concentration means you have to sit like 'the thinker', then yes, I guess you're right.
Drachasor 12-21-06, 04:43 PM	From the Manual of the Planes - Elemental Plane of Water: "Those with fly speeds can fly at half their normal rate, and their maneuverability is reduced one grade" Half movement rate makes a lot of sense to me. Especially with something like a fly spell. I'm wary of saying any creature with a fly speed can still "fly" underwater though....I suppose there is some sense to that position though (aerodynamically speaking...but given the lightness of a natural flyer, I don't think this holds much...err...water). IMHO, I'd say creatures with wingless flight (e.g. magical or some other sort of thrust) should be able to fly underwater at half their normal flight speed. I don't think you need to make any changes to maneuverability. Afterall, anything that isn't perfect is going to already suffer a great deal from loss of speed (hence turning will already be more sluggish). In other words, imho, if you have perfect maneuverability and wingless flight, then you effectively have a swim speed equal to half your fly speed. If you don't have perfect maneuverability, then you might want to consider making swim checks (since that will give you better maneuvering) and focusing on your land speed, if that is good enough. That's how I'd run it in one of my campaigns (not that I am running one at the moment). As for freedom of movement, that spell, underwater, is superior to the fly spell in numerous ways: you can move full-speed, you can't get entangled or impeded, you suffer no penalties on attack rolls or damage (which is normally -2 on attack and half damage for slashing and bludgeoning weapons). Fly just doesn't compare with that. -Drachasor PS. If you just want to be quick and dirty, then just giving any creature with a wingless flight speed a swim speed equal to half their fly speed would probably do. A lot less work than dealing with the maneuverability rules for flying, I admit. Most flying that is wingless is near-perfect anyhow. PPS. Maybe instead of "wingless flying", I should say "wingless or magical flight" -- where it is understood that polymorphing into something that flies is not magical flight.
Kursk 12-21-06, 05:33 PM	Curious: would anyone here restrict the levitate spell from being useable underwater? No , because it doesn't specifically state "levitate through the air".
mvincent 12-21-06, 05:36 PM	The Fly spell, per the PHB, states "requires only as much concentration as walking." My bad. I was thinking "unconscious" rather than "paralyzed". I agree that one need not fall while paralyzed if using a 'thought only' mode of flight.
User5127 12-21-06, 11:04 PM	From the Manual of the Planes - Elemental Plane of Water: "Those with fly speeds can fly at half their normal rate, and their maneuverability is reduced one grade" well there is your answer. the "Fly" spell would work underwater. it gives you a fly speed and a manuverabilty rating. so you just have to halve the speed for underwater and use a manuverability one step lower than what you can use now. and treat the water as if it were air. so if you have average, you get poor and have to manuver underwater with the poor manuvablity at half speed. not to bad. also. the arrowhawk may not enter water, but a demilich might. and they have 180 perfect flight but no land speed at all. so what would they do? just stop moving in the water? die like some "bugs". according to mvincent they would now have 90 speed and one step lower in manuverability. thank you for clearing up the issue ^_^ you are a king amoung men for finding that. lol