Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elendur 08-31-04, 05:53 PM	This seems like an obvious use for the spell.
Seeker95 08-31-04, 07:26 PM	It is... as long as you can deal with having said control last for only 3 hours and 20 minutes a day. I have seen posts offering magical sails of control wind that last all day. Using the formula, they would cost 150,000gp. If you limited the functionality a bit (like restricting the force to no greater than a strong wind), this could be conceivably reduced. If I were a sailing man, I suspect these would be worth every copper even at full price.
baerdith 08-31-04, 10:59 PM	Or the character could research a spell that lasts longer but is weaker. IE Control winds is a 5th level spell that can go from 0 M.P.H. to 175+ M.P.H But only lasts 10 mins. per level. Gust of Wind is a 3rd level spell that Blows a single 50 M.P.H Gust. Create a 4th level spell that blows a consistent 25 M.P.H. for 20 mins per level. And at 4th level you could stick it in a wand. Just imagine the Gold Pieces you would rake in selling them down at the Docks! :D
Razorblade Smile 08-31-04, 11:38 PM	It is... as long as you can deal with having said control last for only 3 hours and 20 minutes a day. For a pirating vessel, that's more than enough time.
Seeker95 09-01-04, 07:51 AM	And at 4th level you could stick it in a wand. Just imagine the Gold Pieces you would rake in selling them down at the Docks!Not much. Make it an item the average, non-spellcasting ship's captain can use and you've got yourself a business.
Elendur 09-01-04, 10:23 AM	I left my problem unstated, in the hopes that someone else would mention it. The problem I'm having is that control winds is an area of effect spell, so the ship would move out of the area rapidly. For example a 20th level druid casting a spell would create an area of effect 800 feet in diameter. A ship is going to move out of that area in a few minutes. Unless you argue that the area somehow moves with the ship. I don't know exactly how that would work.
Seeker95 09-01-04, 11:41 AM	Unless you argue that the area somehow moves with the ship. I don't know exactly how that would work.Well, I guess if you want to cast it relative to the water instead of relative to the ship, you would have a problem. I would cast it relative to the ship.
baerdith 09-01-04, 12:42 PM	Not much. Make it an item the average, non-spellcasting ship's captain can use and you've got yourself a business. Well. if it is a pirate ship the Captain would probably have a few levels of Rogue so he can use UMD for it :) Thinking on it though what about a "Bag of Winds" Wondrous Items usable by anyone? Something kinda like the "Feather Token- Fan" but in a bag that can be opened only for 8 hours per day?
Seeker95 09-01-04, 01:23 PM	the Captain would probably have a few levels of Rogue so he can use UMD for itAssuming he has UMD. :D Thinking on it though what about a "Bag of Winds" Wondrous Items usable by anyone?See above. Using gust of wind would make it cheaper. Use activated, 2nd level spell, unslotted item: 12,000gp But I don't think it is a good idea. Gust of wind generates a 50mph wind -- definitely unsafe for a sailing vessel. That would be a 9 on the Beaufort scale (43 knots -- a Strong Gale). The control winds spell is significantly better for a sailing vessel, since it allows the user to specify how much s/he wants to adjust the winds. Further, it would allow a captain to *decrease* the winds in a storm, providing for greater safety.
Elendur 09-01-04, 01:56 PM	Well, I guess if you want to cast it relative to the water instead of relative to the ship, you would have a problem. I would cast it relative to the ship.Ah, yes. See that's what I'm having trouble understanding. Are you allowed to declare a relative frame of reference? Would you be able to cast fog cloud relative to the ship, so the cloud follows it around? How about relative to the flying carpet you are on?
Crust 09-01-04, 02:04 PM	Would the archmage high arcana class skill Mastery of Shaping solve your problem?
Seeker95 09-01-04, 02:45 PM	Ah, yes. See that's what I'm having trouble understanding. Are you allowed to declare a relative frame of reference? Would you be able to cast fog cloud relative to the ship, so the cloud follows it around? How about relative to the flying carpet you are on?I would say yes, you can cast a spell relative to transport. However, it is definitely an area the rules do not address. Consider: If relative casting is not possible, then what is the frame of reference for a cloudkill spell cast on the surface of a planet that rotates? Should it not instantly move at approximately 1000mph (depending how big the planet is)? If relative casting is not possible, then what happens when you cast meteor swarm while standing on a moving ship? I would allow relative casting. I would also understand a DM who does not permit it. I would disagree, but I would understand.
JLP 09-01-04, 04:04 PM	Get a 20 gallon adamantine bottle with a relatively narrow neck. Build it into a rock-solid but turnable mount on the very stern of the boat, with the bottle's opening facing aft. Lay in a whole bunch of "create water" wands and have a couple clerics use them to continually create water inside the bottle. The new spell will force the water from the previous spell out the nozzle at terrific pressure. Ergo: jet boat. ;)
baerdith 09-01-04, 04:24 PM	Assuming he has UMD. :D See above. Using gust of wind would make it cheaper. Use activated, 2nd level spell, unslotted item: 12,000gp But I don't think it is a good idea. Gust of wind generates a 50mph wind -- definitely unsafe for a sailing vessel. That would be a 9 on the Beaufort scale (43 knots -- a Strong Gale). The control winds spell is significantly better for a sailing vessel, since it allows the user to specify how much s/he wants to adjust the winds. Further, it would allow a captain to *decrease* the winds in a storm, providing for greater safety. The Feather Token specifically mentions pushing a ship at 25 M.P.H. So it is possible, the description doesn't say how though (other than making a big fan)
Elendur 09-01-04, 08:00 PM	I'm overthinking it, I suspect. Obviously you can't apply relativity strictly to an imaginary fantasy world. I guess I'll just take it on a case by case basis. It is interesting to consider though. Take the control wind example. A druid standing on a ship creating a 'fixed' wind effect (relative to him and the ship) seems reasonable. But what if the same druid casts control winds to cause a tornado to appear over another ship heading in the opposite direction. Does the tornado follow the other ship around? Or does the ship sail through it?
Edymnion 09-01-04, 08:43 PM	Better yet, use Control Winds on the badguy's ship. Anybody with a sailboat can tell you what happens if you don't furl your sails in high winds. Just imagine that sail if you suddenly hit it, fully deployed, with Hurricane or Tornado force winds. Best case scenario, you rip the sail to shreds. Worst case, you capsize the boat and it sinks right then and there.
lanilifar 09-01-04, 10:07 PM	If relative casting is not possible, then what happens when you cast meteor swarm while standing on a moving ship? I don't understand this example. What exactly are you trying to illustrate with it?
Seeker95 09-01-04, 11:25 PM	I don't understand this example. What exactly are you trying to illustrate with it?Meteor swarm targets an area that you select, in a straight line. If you are on a moving ship, where would the meteors end up landing? (I used a bad example spell, since meteor swarm is instantaneous). Let's go with delayed blast fireball. If you were standing at the aft of the ship, fired it at an opponent at the fore of the ship (where it remained for a few rounds) the moving ship would propel you toward the bead, where you are likely to hit it, detonating it yourself.
[GSV] Kirstar 09-02-04, 03:38 AM	planetary rotation is discounted and relative to a general observer it is motionless. I would say control winds is centered on an area, not a person or vehicle yjere is a higher level version however that does move with the caster, control weather i think
Elendur 09-02-04, 01:33 PM	It would be reasonable to rule that the frame of reference is always the surface of the earth, though that does cause certain problems for vehicles(like the control winds example, or casting a 'wall' spell on the surface of a moving object). However in certain planes, there is not surface or any other obvious objective frame of reference. The plane of air, for example. So the problem still exists.
Kirin Corrigan 09-02-04, 02:26 PM	Meteor swarm targets an area that you select, in a straight line. If you are on a moving ship, where would the meteors end up landing? (I used a bad example spell, since meteor swarm is instantaneous). Let's go with delayed blast fireball. If you were standing at the aft of the ship, fired it at an opponent at the fore of the ship (where it remained for a few rounds) the moving ship would propel you toward the bead, where you are likely to hit it, detonating it yourself. Delayed Blast Fireball is not a good example either: you create and toss a "timebomb" bead, which can then be manipulated and/or hurled away before it blows up. In the end the spell has really nothing to do with relative spatial reference systems in any way, just like Meteor Swarm or any other "burst" spell. You may want to pick an "emanation" or a "spread" spell (Fog Cloud, for example), if anything.
Seeker95 09-02-04, 03:32 PM	In any case, I allow variable reference. If you are on a ship, go for it.
Simetrical 09-02-04, 08:33 PM	I think I'd allow fixing a duration spell's area to any part of any object of, say, Huge or greater size that's within 5 feet of a part of the spell's area. I wouldn't allow you to attach it to a relatively small object, because that raises problems with attaching walls of force to pebbles and carrying them around or whatever (not balance issues, but weirdness issues). I wouldn't allow you to attach it to a creature, for similar reasons. If the object a spell is attached to suddenly becomes invalid (such as by being broken so that it's smaller than Huge, or by becoming a creature), the spell would then attach itself to the nearest valid object (which might be further away than 5 feet). I can't see any weirdness arising out of this, but I might have missed something. Thoughts?
Elendur 09-03-04, 01:53 PM	That seems reasonable. I'm not sure about allowing an durable AE spell on a frame of reference other than the casters, though. i.e. the fog cloud or control winds cast on someone else's ship. Seems like if someone whips up some nasty weather effect, you should be able to try to sail out of it.
Simetrical 09-03-04, 03:45 PM	Well, if the caster is level 9, the windstorm is going to be a 360-ft. radius anyway, and if you're allowed to just hook it onto the sea, you could effectively stretch that out to 720 ft. by putting the edge where the wind originates right next to the ship you want to hit (ever tried tacking against a windstorm?). Once you get to level 12, moreover, any normal ship is going to sink whether or not the effect is centered on it (even if it's not centered, we're talking hurricane-force winds for 960 ft.). So, it's not such a dramatic power boost.
coofpsychycic 09-03-04, 05:27 PM	The act of elemental control may be subject to the level versus traite or a previuosly set DM modified roll for Int Wis or Cons,at whitch the level of wind made by any magic use falls to a -1d6 for any set modifier,so the party may have a good wind trick however the DM rolls 6 and they lose thus an inehebreated roll is made for the spell,item or invocation used Thus 3 rolled by DM means 3 players must win a modifier roll a 5 means 5 player wins,an extra for 1 player may apply A driven wind factor will always have a modifier for a party:thus the relevance of a partyy reaching their goal in time is a rnd rolled factor