Cantrip feat or something [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cantrip feat or something [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keenath
08-23-05, 03:14 PM I had an idea for a feat, or possibly a class ability, that would increase the usefulness of cantrips when the caster is at higher levels.

I have no idea what level would be appropriate; if this were a class ability I would think somewhere around Sor 7 or 10 would be good.

If it were a feat, I'd need some help thinking up prereqs, but I definitely don't want Quicken to be a prereq to it, so don't bother mentioning that.

Cantrip Celerity
Benefit: You may cast level 0 arcane spells as a swift action instead of their normal casting time. However, you may only use this ability during a turn in which you do not cast another spell, activate a spell-like ability, or use a spell completion or spell-trigger item. You may still use command words in the same turn that you use Cantrip Celerity. Cantrip Celerity does not decrease the casting time for spell-like abilities, spell completion items, or spell-trigger items, even if they reproduce a level 0 spell.

What do you think?
Centauri
08-23-05, 03:24 PM What do you think? I think that cantrips, by their very nature, aren't supposed to be very useful. They're mainly there for flavor, certain useful housekeeping spells, and minor entertainment. Using them in a crisis situation and expecting to get much out of them should be a last ditch kind of thing.
Seeker95
08-23-05, 06:18 PM I like the idea, and think cantrips should be completely useful.
They are the ultimate in utility -- low on power, but perfect for the job.

That said, this Feat is wasted if the only time you can really use it effectively is when you don't need to use it. Except in combat where you need to accomplish more than time will allow, you have all the time in the world. I would make the Feat turn any cantrip you cast into a Swift Action casting time. No further restrictions necessary. It is not unbalancing, given that using a swift action to cast a cantrip prevents using any other swift actions.
Keenath
08-24-05, 09:34 AM I would agree, Seeker, except that Quicken already exists to do that for cantrips, and it makes the thing take up a 4th level slot. I was trying to figure a way to allow quick cantrippery, which adds hugely to the "I'm a powerful wizard" feel, but without stepping on the toes of Quicken and such.
Immoral Sniper
08-24-05, 10:04 AM This would technically step on the toes of the epic feat "Automatic Quicken Spell", but it could also work as a pre-req for it as well...
ajmastrean
08-24-05, 11:53 AM Would making them a move-action cause any problems?
Keenath
08-24-05, 01:45 PM I don't think this clashes with Auto-Quicken, because that feat just has cantrips thrown in as a bonus. If you take it multiple times, it quickens the next three levels of spells. The first time you take it, it quickens 1st through 3rd, and throws in cantrips as a bonus.

Either way, I don't see that quick cantrips would be very game-shaking.

Actually, this feat would probably be okay to just auto-quicken all your cantrips, with no limitations, provided it doesn't show up before about 12th level.

I would stay away from making it a move action, simply because there is no precedent for that sort of thing.
Seeker95
08-25-05, 09:45 AM (Throughout this, I referred to "Cantrip Celerity" as "Swift Cantrip". Too lazy to re-type and correct.)

If the Feat is restricted to Cantrips only, I see no conflict with Quicken. The two acocmplish the same outcome (a swift action cantrip) but differ in utility and cost.

Quicken
Benefit: Can be applied to any spell.
Restriction: Uses slot 4 levels higher.

Swift Cantrip
Benefit: Swift without slot cost.
Restriction: Applies to cantrips only.

Both have the same opportunity cost: by taking any given Feat, you pass up taking all of the other available Feats.

Because Quicken has such universal utility, applying to whatever spell you want to Quicken (for which you have an available slot), it is "better" for general use. Swift Cantrip (as created by you and modified by my suggestion) has a very narrow application, making it a Feat choice suitable for very defined character concepts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 08-23-05, 03:14 PM	I had an idea for a feat, or possibly a class ability, that would increase the usefulness of cantrips when the caster is at higher levels. I have no idea what level would be appropriate; if this were a class ability I would think somewhere around Sor 7 or 10 would be good. If it were a feat, I'd need some help thinking up prereqs, but I definitely don't want Quicken to be a prereq to it, so don't bother mentioning that. Cantrip Celerity Benefit: You may cast level 0 arcane spells as a swift action instead of their normal casting time. However, you may only use this ability during a turn in which you do not cast another spell, activate a spell-like ability, or use a spell completion or spell-trigger item. You may still use command words in the same turn that you use Cantrip Celerity. Cantrip Celerity does not decrease the casting time for spell-like abilities, spell completion items, or spell-trigger items, even if they reproduce a level 0 spell. What do you think?
Centauri 08-23-05, 03:24 PM	What do you think? I think that cantrips, by their very nature, aren't supposed to be very useful. They're mainly there for flavor, certain useful housekeeping spells, and minor entertainment. Using them in a crisis situation and expecting to get much out of them should be a last ditch kind of thing.
Seeker95 08-23-05, 06:18 PM	I like the idea, and think cantrips should be completely useful. They are the ultimate in utility -- low on power, but perfect for the job. That said, this Feat is wasted if the only time you can really use it effectively is when you don't need to use it. Except in combat where you need to accomplish more than time will allow, you have all the time in the world. I would make the Feat turn any cantrip you cast into a Swift Action casting time. No further restrictions necessary. It is not unbalancing, given that using a swift action to cast a cantrip prevents using any other swift actions.
Keenath 08-24-05, 09:34 AM	I would agree, Seeker, except that Quicken already exists to do that for cantrips, and it makes the thing take up a 4th level slot. I was trying to figure a way to allow quick cantrippery, which adds hugely to the "I'm a powerful wizard" feel, but without stepping on the toes of Quicken and such.
Immoral Sniper 08-24-05, 10:04 AM	This would technically step on the toes of the epic feat "Automatic Quicken Spell", but it could also work as a pre-req for it as well...
ajmastrean 08-24-05, 11:53 AM	Would making them a move-action cause any problems?
Keenath 08-24-05, 01:45 PM	I don't think this clashes with Auto-Quicken, because that feat just has cantrips thrown in as a bonus. If you take it multiple times, it quickens the next three levels of spells. The first time you take it, it quickens 1st through 3rd, and throws in cantrips as a bonus. Either way, I don't see that quick cantrips would be very game-shaking. Actually, this feat would probably be okay to just auto-quicken all your cantrips, with no limitations, provided it doesn't show up before about 12th level. I would stay away from making it a move action, simply because there is no precedent for that sort of thing.
Seeker95 08-25-05, 09:45 AM	(Throughout this, I referred to "Cantrip Celerity" as "Swift Cantrip". Too lazy to re-type and correct.) If the Feat is restricted to Cantrips only, I see no conflict with Quicken. The two acocmplish the same outcome (a swift action cantrip) but differ in utility and cost. Quicken Benefit: Can be applied to any spell. Restriction: Uses slot 4 levels higher. Swift Cantrip Benefit: Swift without slot cost. Restriction: Applies to cantrips only. Both have the same opportunity cost: by taking any given Feat, you pass up taking all of the other available Feats. Because Quicken has such universal utility, applying to whatever spell you want to Quicken (for which you have an available slot), it is "better" for general use. Swift Cantrip (as created by you and modified by my suggestion) has a very narrow application, making it a Feat choice suitable for very defined character concepts.