Captured spellbooks and learning the spells in them [Archive] - Wizards Community

Captured spellbooks and learning the spells in them [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gamebird
09-19-05, 01:11 PM I am the DM of a 3.0 game. A few adventures ago, the party came across a severely damaged spellbook. They found and hired the means to repair it. Now the wizard in the game wants to learn and cast the spells it contains.

I had thought this would entail a lot of cost on his part, as he would have to write the spells into his own spellbook for the 3.0 cost of 200 gp/level. But as the player pointed out, this isn't a "borrowed" spellbook - he now owns the spellbook the spells are in. It is "his spellbook". So he doesn't have to write it anywhere. He just has to make the Spellcraft roll to learn it.

((Game balance DM/Metagame aside: I didn't intend for him to have so many spells so cheaply, but on the other hand none of the spells are wicked awesome, or broken, or even problematic. So if he learns them all, it's not a big deal. However, this will set a precedent and **greatly** changes the value of an acquired spellbook in future situations.))

My question is whether he's right. If you capture a spellbook, do you have to actually write the spell into a different spellbook, or can you just hang onto the spell book you have and say it's as much "yours" as your other spell books?

It's apparent that a high level wizard will have multiple spell books just to hold their normal spells, without addressing issues of having various captured spellbooks. So it works for me that a wizard would have multiple spellbooks. Yet can you short-circuit the learning of spells from them, by capturing it and then learning the spells within it, without copying them out?

I'm not all that bothered about it one way or the other. Please don't answer saying it's up to me as the DM. I know it's up to me. I'm just honestly trying to figure out what the Rules As Written (and possibly errata or FAQ) support.

Not a small part of this is because I play a wizard in a different game and we're currently in a battle where I expect we'll get a bunch of different spellbooks. It would be awesome if I could get those and not have to pay to re-copy the spells. But I'm sure my DM there won't buy it unless I can show him rules to support it. Always before I've had to re-copy them.
Raelifin
09-19-05, 01:34 PM This is the 3.5 rule entry. First you must decipher the writing then you need to make a Spellcraft DC 15 + spell level each time you try to prepare a spell from it or you can't prepare that spell for today.
Arindor
09-19-05, 01:40 PM This is from the SRD "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured".

You still have to have copied it in your spell book for you to learn it but if you lose your spell book you can memorize it from someone else's.
Puca
09-19-05, 01:54 PM Yeah, you need to copy all the spells down to make them yours. I think the idea is that all wizards use their own "short-hand" to record spells, so it isnt a given that another caster can use your book; although, I might be just remembering that from an earlier edition.

It is going to tke 24 hours per spell, and it will take cost 100gp per page, but, he should be able to then sell the captured spellbook for 50 gp per page when hes done.
Gamebird
09-19-05, 01:57 PM So your conclusion is that capturing someone else's spellbook doesn't make it "your spell book" as far as the copying spells thing goes?

That's sort of what I thought, but since this makes such a huge monetary difference to the character, I wanted to be sure (and have rules to back me up) before I made him spend that much.
BaelinWhale
09-19-05, 02:02 PM The point as to who 'owns' a spellbook is completely invalid as you're just arguing semantics.

A wizard's spellbook is a collection of notes and spell formulas that allow him to store magical energy within his mind. However, each wizard has developed his own unique style of notes and formulas through which he can prepare spells.

Thus while spells are often identical, each wizard has a different style of writing in his spellbook (think of it as trying to copy your friend's shorthand notes). Since you're not intimately versed with the other wizard's writing style, you'll always have problems trying to understand it.

When a wizard scribes spells into his own spellbook, he needs to decipher the other wizard's notes and then transcribe it into his own. In short, you are taking your understanding of the spell and reworking it into your own writing style so you can clearly understand it everytime.

The information below is taken from the 3.5 SRD documents. It's 100% official, and supports what's written above so I hope that helps settle the issue. Happy gaming :)

ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.

Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp.
Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.

Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Selling a Spellbook
Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.
Schmendrick
09-19-05, 02:03 PM However, each character uses the [universal arcane language] system in her own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

I'd say that separates labeling a captured spellbook as "mine" from actually having written its spells yourself.
Gamebird
09-19-05, 02:11 PM I agree. The key point being that someone else's magical writings are different from your own and don't count as your own writing.
sfurtwangler
09-19-05, 03:31 PM In Complete Arcane (and some FR books) there are rules for "mastering" someone elses spellbook. It takes a week + 1 day for every spell within... and yo umake a spellcraft check DC = 25 + level of highest level spell in the book.... if you succeed, you have mastered the spellbook, and it is now your own.

Until then, you have to make a spellcraft check DC 15+ spell level each time you try to learn a spell out of it (although any wizard worth his salt can take-10 on this check)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gamebird 09-19-05, 01:11 PM	I am the DM of a 3.0 game. A few adventures ago, the party came across a severely damaged spellbook. They found and hired the means to repair it. Now the wizard in the game wants to learn and cast the spells it contains. I had thought this would entail a lot of cost on his part, as he would have to write the spells into his own spellbook for the 3.0 cost of 200 gp/level. But as the player pointed out, this isn't a "borrowed" spellbook - he now owns the spellbook the spells are in. It is "his spellbook". So he doesn't have to write it anywhere. He just has to make the Spellcraft roll to learn it. ((Game balance DM/Metagame aside: I didn't intend for him to have so many spells so cheaply, but on the other hand none of the spells are wicked awesome, or broken, or even problematic. So if he learns them all, it's not a big deal. However, this will set a precedent and greatly changes the value of an acquired spellbook in future situations.)) My question is whether he's right. If you capture a spellbook, do you have to actually write the spell into a different spellbook, or can you just hang onto the spell book you have and say it's as much "yours" as your other spell books? It's apparent that a high level wizard will have multiple spell books just to hold their normal spells, without addressing issues of having various captured spellbooks. So it works for me that a wizard would have multiple spellbooks. Yet can you short-circuit the learning of spells from them, by capturing it and then learning the spells within it, without copying them out? I'm not all that bothered about it one way or the other. Please don't answer saying it's up to me as the DM. I know it's up to me. I'm just honestly trying to figure out what the Rules As Written (and possibly errata or FAQ) support. Not a small part of this is because I play a wizard in a different game and we're currently in a battle where I expect we'll get a bunch of different spellbooks. It would be awesome if I could get those and not have to pay to re-copy the spells. But I'm sure my DM there won't buy it unless I can show him rules to support it. Always before I've had to re-copy them.
Raelifin 09-19-05, 01:34 PM	This is the 3.5 rule entry. First you must decipher the writing then you need to make a Spellcraft DC 15 + spell level each time you try to prepare a spell from it or you can't prepare that spell for today.
Arindor 09-19-05, 01:40 PM	This is from the SRD "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured". You still have to have copied it in your spell book for you to learn it but if you lose your spell book you can memorize it from someone else's.
Puca 09-19-05, 01:54 PM	Yeah, you need to copy all the spells down to make them yours. I think the idea is that all wizards use their own "short-hand" to record spells, so it isnt a given that another caster can use your book; although, I might be just remembering that from an earlier edition. It is going to tke 24 hours per spell, and it will take cost 100gp per page, but, he should be able to then sell the captured spellbook for 50 gp per page when hes done.
Gamebird 09-19-05, 01:57 PM	So your conclusion is that capturing someone else's spellbook doesn't make it "your spell book" as far as the copying spells thing goes? That's sort of what I thought, but since this makes such a huge monetary difference to the character, I wanted to be sure (and have rules to back me up) before I made him spend that much.
BaelinWhale 09-19-05, 02:02 PM	The point as to who 'owns' a spellbook is completely invalid as you're just arguing semantics. A wizard's spellbook is a collection of notes and spell formulas that allow him to store magical energy within his mind. However, each wizard has developed his own unique style of notes and formulas through which he can prepare spells. Thus while spells are often identical, each wizard has a different style of writing in his spellbook (think of it as trying to copy your friend's shorthand notes). Since you're not intimately versed with the other wizard's writing style, you'll always have problems trying to understand it. When a wizard scribes spells into his own spellbook, he needs to decipher the other wizard's notes and then transcribe it into his own. In short, you are taking your understanding of the spell and reworking it into your own writing style so you can clearly understand it everytime. The information below is taken from the 3.5 SRD documents. It's 100% official, and supports what's written above so I hope that helps settle the issue. Happy gaming :) ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it. To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic. Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll. Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.) Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast. Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school. Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment. If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp. Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook. Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level. Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages. Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. Replacing and Copying Spellbooks A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book. Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved. Selling a Spellbook Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.
Schmendrick 09-19-05, 02:03 PM	However, each character uses the [universal arcane language] system in her own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it. I'd say that separates labeling a captured spellbook as "mine" from actually having written its spells yourself.
Gamebird 09-19-05, 02:11 PM	I agree. The key point being that someone else's magical writings are different from your own and don't count as your own writing.
sfurtwangler 09-19-05, 03:31 PM	In Complete Arcane (and some FR books) there are rules for "mastering" someone elses spellbook. It takes a week + 1 day for every spell within... and yo umake a spellcraft check DC = 25 + level of highest level spell in the book.... if you succeed, you have mastered the spellbook, and it is now your own. Until then, you have to make a spellcraft check DC 15+ spell level each time you try to learn a spell out of it (although any wizard worth his salt can take-10 on this check)