Cast spells in polymorph? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cast spells in polymorph? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yuhan
03-23-07, 08:58 AM Can you cast spells while under the effect of a polymorph spell? i.e. if you give yourself wings, gills, etc., do you still cast as a regular spellcaster without any penalty?
CantripN
03-23-07, 09:03 AM Yup. More to the point: Stop using Polymorph, people!
CliveKoen
03-23-07, 11:41 AM You need to Polymorph yourself into something (some form of creature)...and as long as that something can cast spells then so can you....is my opinion but I have a post with a very similiar question (I think my DM is being a bit difficult).
Seeker95
03-23-07, 12:22 PM Yup. More to the point: Stop using Polymorph, people!If you have a problem with it, that is.
NoldorForce
03-23-07, 01:45 PM If you have the appropriate limbs and vocal capacity, yes. Otherwise, no. There is a feat in Savage Species that addresses this that converts various physical motions and sounds to somatic and verbal components (respectively), which will solve the problem if there's any doubt.
Saytr
03-23-07, 03:37 PM I thought that the polymorphing rule in PHB 2 was that you lost your class abilities when polyed. No spells. You ARE that creature in the MM statblock, except that you retain your language and HP's.

Don't have it in front of me, but I believe PHB 2 is the latest polymorph ruling.
NoldorForce
03-23-07, 03:44 PM The Polymorph subschool doesn't actually affect the Polymorph line of spells at all.* There's a line in there that essentially tells you to defer to the existing text of Spells That Have Come Before.

*Strictly speaking, the Polymorph subschool does change the Polymorph line of spells to a certain degree. Due to the many restrictions and delineations within the entire chain, nothing detrimental occurs. However, due to the subschool's blanket "you get everything of the creature that's not given as an exception", you can technically gain spellcasting abilities when you Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange into the appropriate creature. Most people (like me) ignore this and just take the deferral text to indicate a blanket "don't pay attention to this when using the old stuff".
Kyaran
03-23-07, 03:57 PM I thought that the polymorphing rule in PHB 2 was that you lost your class abilities when polyed.Only for basic (Polymorph) subschool spells like trollshape.

The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).

You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

And, as we all know, polymorph is derivative of alter self.
Saytr
03-24-07, 04:21 AM You gain the Su and Sp like abilities of the new form. Spells too.

So you get all the new forms abilities AND your own?

:confused:
Kyaran
03-24-07, 04:41 PM So you get all the new forms abilities AND your own?Not exactly.

If you read the polymorph subschool description, you find that you keep almost nothing. The description for alter self adds in many features and specifies what things you keep and gain, and the description for polymorph itself adds a few more.

The end result is that you keep everything from your class that the new form can use, and you gain physical traits and extraordinary special attacks, but not special qualities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities.

This is only a summary. The best resolution is to read the rules in order of most to least general, and use the most specific rule. If the subschool says you keep no abilities, and alter self says you do while polymorph makes no mention, alter self is highest in precedence and is correct. This is because the subschool specifies that specific spells may override the general subschool properties.
Saytr
03-24-07, 05:57 PM Where is it? I just read it once in PHB 2. Is it online?
ArcTan
03-24-07, 06:16 PM Not exactly.

If you read the polymorph subschool description, you find that you keep almost nothing. The description for alter self adds in many features and specifies what things you keep and gain, and the description for polymorph itself adds a few more.

The end result is that you keep everything from your class that the new form can use, and you gain physical traits and extraordinary special attacks, but not special qualities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities.

This is only a summary. The best resolution is to read the rules in order of most to least general, and use the most specific rule. If the subschool says you keep no abilities, and alter self says you do while polymorph makes no mention, alter self is highest in precedence and is correct. This is because the subschool specifies that specific spells may override the general subschool properties.

Note that this is because the subschool didn't use to exist.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yuhan 03-23-07, 08:58 AM	Can you cast spells while under the effect of a polymorph spell? i.e. if you give yourself wings, gills, etc., do you still cast as a regular spellcaster without any penalty?
CantripN 03-23-07, 09:03 AM	Yup. More to the point: Stop using Polymorph, people!
CliveKoen 03-23-07, 11:41 AM	You need to Polymorph yourself into something (some form of creature)...and as long as that something can cast spells then so can you....is my opinion but I have a post with a very similiar question (I think my DM is being a bit difficult).
Seeker95 03-23-07, 12:22 PM	Yup. More to the point: Stop using Polymorph, people!If you have a problem with it, that is.
NoldorForce 03-23-07, 01:45 PM	If you have the appropriate limbs and vocal capacity, yes. Otherwise, no. There is a feat in Savage Species that addresses this that converts various physical motions and sounds to somatic and verbal components (respectively), which will solve the problem if there's any doubt.
Saytr 03-23-07, 03:37 PM	I thought that the polymorphing rule in PHB 2 was that you lost your class abilities when polyed. No spells. You ARE that creature in the MM statblock, except that you retain your language and HP's. Don't have it in front of me, but I believe PHB 2 is the latest polymorph ruling.
NoldorForce 03-23-07, 03:44 PM	The Polymorph subschool doesn't actually affect the Polymorph line of spells at all.* There's a line in there that essentially tells you to defer to the existing text of Spells That Have Come Before. *Strictly speaking, the Polymorph subschool does change the Polymorph line of spells to a certain degree. Due to the many restrictions and delineations within the entire chain, nothing detrimental occurs. However, due to the subschool's blanket "you get everything of the creature that's not given as an exception", you can technically gain spellcasting abilities when you Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange into the appropriate creature. Most people (like me) ignore this and just take the deferral text to indicate a blanket "don't pay attention to this when using the old stuff".
Kyaran 03-23-07, 03:57 PM	I thought that the polymorphing rule in PHB 2 was that you lost your class abilities when polyed.Only for basic (Polymorph) subschool spells like trollshape. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features). You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. And, as we all know, polymorph is derivative of alter self.
Saytr 03-24-07, 04:21 AM	You gain the Su and Sp like abilities of the new form. Spells too. So you get all the new forms abilities AND your own? :confused:
Kyaran 03-24-07, 04:41 PM	So you get all the new forms abilities AND your own?Not exactly. If you read the polymorph subschool description, you find that you keep almost nothing. The description for alter self adds in many features and specifies what things you keep and gain, and the description for polymorph itself adds a few more. The end result is that you keep everything from your class that the new form can use, and you gain physical traits and extraordinary special attacks, but not special qualities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities. This is only a summary. The best resolution is to read the rules in order of most to least general, and use the most specific rule. If the subschool says you keep no abilities, and alter self says you do while polymorph makes no mention, alter self is highest in precedence and is correct. This is because the subschool specifies that specific spells may override the general subschool properties.
Saytr 03-24-07, 05:57 PM	Where is it? I just read it once in PHB 2. Is it online?
ArcTan 03-24-07, 06:16 PM	Not exactly. If you read the polymorph subschool description, you find that you keep almost nothing. The description for alter self adds in many features and specifies what things you keep and gain, and the description for polymorph itself adds a few more. The end result is that you keep everything from your class that the new form can use, and you gain physical traits and extraordinary special attacks, but not special qualities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities. This is only a summary. The best resolution is to read the rules in order of most to least general, and use the most specific rule. If the subschool says you keep no abilities, and alter self says you do while polymorph makes no mention, alter self is highest in precedence and is correct. This is because the subschool specifies that specific spells may override the general subschool properties. Note that this is because the subschool didn't use to exist.