Caster Level Adjustments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster Level Adjustments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nosfera2
09-19-06, 11:49 AM I'm curious about how an adjusted caster level affects spell casting. Specifically, let's say I was a 5th level wizard with access to 3rd level spells. I then take the Mage Slayer feat which reduces my caster level by 4 making my caster level 1. Do I lose access to my 3rd and 2nd level spells? Or can I still cast fireball, but it only does 1d6 damage at this point?

Also, can my caster level drop below 1 with the mage slayer feats? If so, what would happen?

P.S. I'm pretty sure a 5th level wizard can't take mage slayer, but this is just an example.
Puca
09-19-06, 11:56 AM Or can I still cast fireball, but it only does 1d6 damage at this point?This one. You can still cast the spells. Also, can my caster level drop below 1 with the mage slayer feats? If so, what would happen?I dont know. I would treat it like a caster-level of zero for the purpose of those efects. (This would mean that spells like Fireball do no damage, and spells like Mage Armor would have a duration of zero rounds.)
metalmorphosis
09-19-06, 12:09 PM I don't think you'd be able to cast the spells. Everything that covers casting a spell at a caster level lower than your own says that you must use the minimum level to cast the spell. The minimum caster level used to cast fireball would be 5th. If you dropped from 5th caster level to 4th, you'd lose all those 3rd level spells... that's the way I see it.
nosfera2
09-19-06, 12:42 PM The only curiosity I have with that is let's say I had taken several levels of a prestige class that only gave me a new caster level every other level. So for argument we'll say I'm caster level 5, character level 9. Since I took a prestige classe I have never had access to 4th and 5th level spells. If I took the practiced spell caster feat (raises my caster level by 4, but no higher than my HD) would I suddenly gain access to 4th and 5th level spells? Or would my spells simply be more powerful (9d6 on fireball instead of 5d6)?
Puca
09-19-06, 12:54 PM I don't think you'd be able to cast the spells. Everything that covers casting a spell at a caster level lower than your own says that you must use the minimum level to cast the spell. The minimum caster level used to cast fireball would be 5th. If you dropped from 5th caster level to 4th, you'd lose all those 3rd level spells... that's the way I see it.The problem I have with this line is that the opposite isnt true. I mean, there are several ways to increase your caster-level, none of which result in your being able to cast higher-level spells.

That is what leads me to believe that the same would be true with a reduced caster-level. De facto, some, many, spells become completely useless when it drops down to zero, but de jure, I think youd still be able to cast them.

________________________
The only curiosity I have with that is let's say I had taken several levels of a prestige class that only gave me a new caster level every other level. So for argument we'll say I'm caster level 5, character level 9. Since I took a prestige classe I have never had access to 4th and 5th level spells. If I took the practiced spell caster feat (raises my caster level by 4, but no higher than my HD) would I suddenly gain access to 4th and 5th level spells? Or would my spells simply be more powerful (9d6 on fireball instead of 5d6)? The latter. Practiced Spellcaster only affects things based on caster-level like duration and the damage of a fireball, like you mentioned.

It also affects your ability to overcome an opponents SR and the difficulty in dispelling your spells, as well as access to feats and PrCs with a caster-level prereq. (Note, the decreased caster level from Mage-Slayer would impact those as well.)

Edit: I should clarify that while the first part of that last paragraph is supported by the text of the feat and other sources, the last, parenthetical, now-bold-font sentence is my opinion. I think it should work that way; it only makes sense, but Ive seen nothing official to back that up.
Merestil Haye
09-19-06, 01:14 PM You might like to consider this from the SRD.You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.Since you cannot cast a spell if your CL is lower than the minimum to cast that spell, I'd rule that the CL penalty from Mage Slayer does prevent you from casting spells of a level higher than your acting caster level could handle.
nosfera2
09-19-06, 07:09 PM Then does that mean if my 6th level wizard gets an ioun stone to up his Caster Level by one, he can now cast 4th level spells? If not, why is this different?
Lafing Cat
09-19-06, 08:59 PM Personally, I don't think it does. The section "the caster level you choose must be high enough to cast the spell in question" only applies to *voluntarily* lowering caster level. not the *involuntary* caster level loss that results from Mage Slayer, negative levels, etc...

An example that proves the rule has at least one exception, an artificer can craft a scroll of fireball at caster level 3, that will do 3d6 worth of damage. This is explicitly stated in the item creation portion of the artificer.

The 6th level wizard can't cast 4th level spells because he has "-" for 4th level spells per day. He casts spells at Caster Level 7, yes, but he still has spells per day as a 6th level wizard.

Even if Mage Slayer *did* prevent a 5th level wizard from casting 2nd and 3rd level spells, said wizard could still use those slots to cast 1st level spells.

Caster level has *no* direct link to spell slots.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nosfera2 09-19-06, 11:49 AM	I'm curious about how an adjusted caster level affects spell casting. Specifically, let's say I was a 5th level wizard with access to 3rd level spells. I then take the Mage Slayer feat which reduces my caster level by 4 making my caster level 1. Do I lose access to my 3rd and 2nd level spells? Or can I still cast fireball, but it only does 1d6 damage at this point? Also, can my caster level drop below 1 with the mage slayer feats? If so, what would happen? P.S. I'm pretty sure a 5th level wizard can't take mage slayer, but this is just an example.
Puca 09-19-06, 11:56 AM	Or can I still cast fireball, but it only does 1d6 damage at this point?This one. You can still cast the spells. Also, can my caster level drop below 1 with the mage slayer feats? If so, what would happen?I dont know. I would treat it like a caster-level of zero for the purpose of those efects. (This would mean that spells like Fireball do no damage, and spells like Mage Armor would have a duration of zero rounds.)
metalmorphosis 09-19-06, 12:09 PM	I don't think you'd be able to cast the spells. Everything that covers casting a spell at a caster level lower than your own says that you must use the minimum level to cast the spell. The minimum caster level used to cast fireball would be 5th. If you dropped from 5th caster level to 4th, you'd lose all those 3rd level spells... that's the way I see it.
nosfera2 09-19-06, 12:42 PM	The only curiosity I have with that is let's say I had taken several levels of a prestige class that only gave me a new caster level every other level. So for argument we'll say I'm caster level 5, character level 9. Since I took a prestige classe I have never had access to 4th and 5th level spells. If I took the practiced spell caster feat (raises my caster level by 4, but no higher than my HD) would I suddenly gain access to 4th and 5th level spells? Or would my spells simply be more powerful (9d6 on fireball instead of 5d6)?
Puca 09-19-06, 12:54 PM	I don't think you'd be able to cast the spells. Everything that covers casting a spell at a caster level lower than your own says that you must use the minimum level to cast the spell. The minimum caster level used to cast fireball would be 5th. If you dropped from 5th caster level to 4th, you'd lose all those 3rd level spells... that's the way I see it.The problem I have with this line is that the opposite isnt true. I mean, there are several ways to increase your caster-level, none of which result in your being able to cast higher-level spells. That is what leads me to believe that the same would be true with a reduced caster-level. De facto, some, many, spells become completely useless when it drops down to zero, but de jure, I think youd still be able to cast them. ________________________ The only curiosity I have with that is let's say I had taken several levels of a prestige class that only gave me a new caster level every other level. So for argument we'll say I'm caster level 5, character level 9. Since I took a prestige classe I have never had access to 4th and 5th level spells. If I took the practiced spell caster feat (raises my caster level by 4, but no higher than my HD) would I suddenly gain access to 4th and 5th level spells? Or would my spells simply be more powerful (9d6 on fireball instead of 5d6)? The latter. Practiced Spellcaster only affects things based on caster-level like duration and the damage of a fireball, like you mentioned. It also affects your ability to overcome an opponents SR and the difficulty in dispelling your spells, as well as access to feats and PrCs with a caster-level prereq. (Note, the decreased caster level from Mage-Slayer would impact those as well.) Edit: I should clarify that while the first part of that last paragraph is supported by the text of the feat and other sources, the last, parenthetical, now-bold-font sentence is my opinion. I think it should work that way; it only makes sense, but Ive seen nothing official to back that up.
Merestil Haye 09-19-06, 01:14 PM	You might like to consider this from the SRD.You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.Since you cannot cast a spell if your CL is lower than the minimum to cast that spell, I'd rule that the CL penalty from Mage Slayer does prevent you from casting spells of a level higher than your acting caster level could handle.
nosfera2 09-19-06, 07:09 PM	Then does that mean if my 6th level wizard gets an ioun stone to up his Caster Level by one, he can now cast 4th level spells? If not, why is this different?
Lafing Cat 09-19-06, 08:59 PM	Personally, I don't think it does. The section "the caster level you choose must be high enough to cast the spell in question" only applies to voluntarily lowering caster level. not the involuntary caster level loss that results from Mage Slayer, negative levels, etc... An example that proves the rule has at least one exception, an artificer can craft a scroll of fireball at caster level 3, that will do 3d6 worth of damage. This is explicitly stated in the item creation portion of the artificer. The 6th level wizard can't cast 4th level spells because he has "-" for 4th level spells per day. He casts spells at Caster Level 7, yes, but he still has spells per day as a 6th level wizard. Even if Mage Slayer did prevent a 5th level wizard from casting 2nd and 3rd level spells, said wizard could still use those slots to cast 1st level spells. Caster level has no direct link to spell slots.