caster level and spell DCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

caster level and spell DCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golden Zealot
06-02-06, 10:46 AM does anyone know why caster level is not factored into spell save DC for any spellcasting class? is it a balance thing, because a while ago I heard a load of people complaining that spell save DCs were too low. maybe including caster level could help?
Witch
06-02-06, 10:47 AM Save DCs are fine.
It's a balance issue.
Seeker95
06-02-06, 12:04 PM Just because.

In D&D, the efficacy of a spell is based on its spell level, not the caster. The potential effect may increase with caster level, but not the likelihood of its success (with the exception of the likelihood that a higher level caster will have higher stat bonuses in the calculation of the DC).

The idea you have suggested would mean that a 20th level character would have just as much difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 20th level caster as he had avoiding it when they were both 5th level. Not an inherently bad thing. Just different.
runestar
06-02-06, 12:08 PM A better question is: Why should it? ;)

That's what supernatural abilities are for.
Harliquinn
06-02-06, 12:46 PM The idea you have suggested would mean that a 20th level character would have just as much difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 20th level caster as he had avoiding it when they were both 5th level. Not an inherently bad thing. Just different.

Though the current system means that a 20th level character has almost the same difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 5th level caster as they do against a 20th level caster (Barring a few points of casting stat).

It would definitely go a long way to making the lower level spells have continued use later on. I'd say +1 DC/level would be very much overpowered, but perhaps a +1 DC/5 levels (5th,10th,15th,20th) wouldn't be unreasonable.
tarkin
06-02-06, 01:32 PM It sounds to me like you never played a 20th level caster or played against one. I have playes such creatures and can tell you that you are totally wrong. In fact, I have NEVER seen a 20th level caster have the same DC as a 5th level caster.

You are pretending that the following does not happen:

A) People raise their stats
B) People take feats that raise DC's
C) People take Prestige Classes that raise DC's

A typical 20th level caster will have DEFINITELY raised their stats since 5th level and will either

1) Not learn/memorize Suggestion
or
2) Take at least a couple of feats and/or a prestige class to raise the DC of Suggestion and other spells he likes.

You are correct that if a player is a fool then at 20th level, his DC's will be the same as at 5th level for the suggestion spell. If so, then he deserves what he gets.

D20 rules as is assumes the player is not a fool and will choose to spend some effort on getting a high DC or will not bother casting a spell. This works out very well, and any player that decides to make an effort can easily have unbeatable DC's by the time they are 20th level.
Pandaemoni
06-02-06, 01:49 PM Adding in another factor to increase DCs would just tip the balance further in favor of spellcasters...are wizards and clerics not powerful enough for ya? Sick of fighters and barbarians always dominating in all the high level games? :D

I could see using caster level in some manner (*not* "+1 DC per caster level," of course), but only if I elimiated the spell-level and attribute score as DC modifiers, but why invent a new system that simple maintains the present balance?
Thiez
06-02-06, 02:57 PM Use psionics. For most powers, you have this 'each +2 power points you spend on this power increase the DC by 1'.

Check it out :)
MJ the Prophet
06-02-06, 03:09 PM Yes, psionics does have a scaling save DC, but that is only because they are spending more effort. Effectively, every 2 power points they spend increases the level of the power by 1, which should increase the save DC by 1.
Harliquinn
06-02-06, 03:27 PM Well my statement was made for a baseline spell being cast. A level 5 caster could have the same feats as a level 20 caster for raising the DC (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus) so those can be removed from the calculation. There may be specific PrC's or items that increase the DC's, but those are campaign specific, so we'll remove those.

Therefore, we are left with the stat increases. The difference between a 20th level caster and a 4th level caster will at most be 4 stat boosts. Assuming they all go to the casting stat...

Level 5 Caster
Casting Stat: 18 = 17 base + 1@4th
Level 5 Caster's DC for a 3rd level spell: 17 = 10 (Base) + 3 (Spell Lvl) + 4 (Stat)

Level 20 Caster
Casting Stat: 22 = 17 base + 5@20th
Level 20 Caster's DC for a 3rd level spell: 19 = 10 (Base) + 3 (Spell Lvl) + 6 (Stat)

============

Level 20 Target (Stat: 14 for resist)
Saving Throw (Good Prog): 14 = 12 (Base) + 2 (Stat)
Chance to Save against 5th: 90%
Chance to save against 20th: 80% (Difference of 10% - 9% higher chance to fail)

9% higher chance to fail a save isn't a large gap for 15 levels of spellcasting. As mentioned, items, PrC's etc are all factored in as well, but the targets will also have items to increase saves, and typically your ability to save against a spell increases faster than the ability to increase the save DC for that spell. There are fewer items, feats, PrC's that increase DC's than there are items, feats, PrC's that increase saving throws.

Harliquinn
MrkGrismer
06-02-06, 04:04 PM You are forgetting about item stat boosts, another +3 DC pre-epic. As well as Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, +2 more. There is also the option of using the Heighten Spell metamagic feat.
Harliquinn
06-02-06, 05:01 PM A caster can have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus by level 5, so those balance out (Can be removed). Item Stat bonuses will tend to even out, since the 'target' of a spell will likely have Stat bonus items that increase his save as well. Heighten spell is a viable option but also uses a higher level slot (the equivalent of casting a spell of that level).
Seeker95
06-02-06, 05:06 PM Though the current system means that a 20th level character has almost the same difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 5th level caster as they do against a 20th level caster.Yep. A suggestion is a suggestion is a suggestion.

Just like a 20th level fighter takes as much damage from a longsword swung by a 1st level fighter as he does from that same longsword swung by a 20th level fighter. The 20th level fighter just gets to swing it more times, and probably adds more strength bonus.
Harliquinn
06-02-06, 06:43 PM Yep. A suggestion is a suggestion is a suggestion.

Just like a 20th level fighter takes as much damage from a longsword swung by a 1st level fighter as he does from that same longsword swung by a 20th level fighter. The 20th level fighter just gets to swing it more times, and probably adds more strength bonus.

Your analogy is a bit flawed actually. The real analogy would have to speak to how often a 5th level fighter would hit a 20th level opponent as opposed to how often a 20th level fighter would hit the same opponent.

A saving throw is functionally equivalent to an attack roll, not the damage. The effects of the spell equate to the damage of the weapon.

With the simplest of comparisons, the 20th level fighter has an additional +15 to hit over the 5th level fighter against the same opponent.

I'm not saying in this thread that I feel mages are underpowered at higher levels.

However, to continue your analogy along: A fighter at 20th using a non-magical dagger that he had at 5th level is still going to have a much easier time hitting a level 20 opponent than he had at level 5 (An increase of +15 plus iterative attacks). A wizard at 20th has a slight increase in chance to affect a level 20 opponent than he did at level 5 with the same low level spell (This is accounted for in stat bonuses only in a baseline case).
Erak
06-02-06, 07:01 PM How about 4 Wishes at 20th to get +4 inherant bonus to Int/Wis. That's an additional +2 to the DC.
Inigo Carmine
06-02-06, 07:05 PM A saving throw is functionally equivalent to an attack roll, not the damage. The effects of the spell equate to the damage of the weapon.

With the simplest of comparisons, the 20th level fighter has an additional +15 to hit over the 5th level fighter against the same opponent.

But unlike with weapons, spells increase in potency (significantly) as a caster levels up. If fireball still only did 5d6 damage at level 20, you'd have a case for increasing the saving throw according to the caster's level.

That being said, if you want to have a higher level caster cast a lower level spell at a higher save DC, there is already a mechanic in place for that: Heighten Spell.
Erak
06-02-06, 07:06 PM So if you start with a 17 and then add 5 for stat boosts.......5 for inherant boosts.........6 for enhancement boosts, you end up with a 33 Int = +11 to base DC.
Seeker95
06-02-06, 07:23 PM So if you start with a 17 and then add 5 for stat boosts.......5 for inherant boosts.........6 for enhancement boosts, you end up with a 33 Int = +11 to base DC.Don't forget the raw addjustments to DC gained from spell focus (+1) Greater spell focus (another +1), Epic Spell Focus (yet another +1) and even Spell Focus (good) (add +2 to spells with the [good] descriptor*) to bump up the save DC to +16 over and above the base.

*With Consecrate spell, you can add the [good] descriptor to every spell you cast. It only uses one slot higher.
runestar
06-03-06, 12:15 AM It would definitely go a long way to making the lower level spells have continued use later on. I'd say +1 DC/level would be very much overpowered, but perhaps a +1 DC/5 levels (5th,10th,15th,20th) wouldn't be unreasonable.
That's what heighten spell is for. ;) It's kinda retarded to have charm person(1st lv spell) have the same dc as dominate monster(9th lv spell), but occupy a much lower lv slot. You want higher save dcs, you will have to use higher lv slots. You can't get something for nothing. ;)
Harliquinn
06-03-06, 12:17 AM Well as I've stated, a level 5 can have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus so those aren't in the comparison. We aren't talking Epic. Also I've already said eliminate magical item bonuses as those are subjective to the campaign. Besides the target can have them as well which makes their save higher. I think I'm done with the discussion since I only find I am repeating myself to each person who mentions the same thing again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golden Zealot 06-02-06, 10:46 AM	does anyone know why caster level is not factored into spell save DC for any spellcasting class? is it a balance thing, because a while ago I heard a load of people complaining that spell save DCs were too low. maybe including caster level could help?
Witch 06-02-06, 10:47 AM	Save DCs are fine. It's a balance issue.
Seeker95 06-02-06, 12:04 PM	Just because. In D&D, the efficacy of a spell is based on its spell level, not the caster. The potential effect may increase with caster level, but not the likelihood of its success (with the exception of the likelihood that a higher level caster will have higher stat bonuses in the calculation of the DC). The idea you have suggested would mean that a 20th level character would have just as much difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 20th level caster as he had avoiding it when they were both 5th level. Not an inherently bad thing. Just different.
runestar 06-02-06, 12:08 PM	A better question is: Why should it? ;) That's what supernatural abilities are for.
Harliquinn 06-02-06, 12:46 PM	The idea you have suggested would mean that a 20th level character would have just as much difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 20th level caster as he had avoiding it when they were both 5th level. Not an inherently bad thing. Just different. Though the current system means that a 20th level character has almost the same difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 5th level caster as they do against a 20th level caster (Barring a few points of casting stat). It would definitely go a long way to making the lower level spells have continued use later on. I'd say +1 DC/level would be very much overpowered, but perhaps a +1 DC/5 levels (5th,10th,15th,20th) wouldn't be unreasonable.
tarkin 06-02-06, 01:32 PM	It sounds to me like you never played a 20th level caster or played against one. I have playes such creatures and can tell you that you are totally wrong. In fact, I have NEVER seen a 20th level caster have the same DC as a 5th level caster. You are pretending that the following does not happen: A) People raise their stats B) People take feats that raise DC's C) People take Prestige Classes that raise DC's A typical 20th level caster will have DEFINITELY raised their stats since 5th level and will either 1) Not learn/memorize Suggestion or 2) Take at least a couple of feats and/or a prestige class to raise the DC of Suggestion and other spells he likes. You are correct that if a player is a fool then at 20th level, his DC's will be the same as at 5th level for the suggestion spell. If so, then he deserves what he gets. D20 rules as is assumes the player is not a fool and will choose to spend some effort on getting a high DC or will not bother casting a spell. This works out very well, and any player that decides to make an effort can easily have unbeatable DC's by the time they are 20th level.
Pandaemoni 06-02-06, 01:49 PM	Adding in another factor to increase DCs would just tip the balance further in favor of spellcasters...are wizards and clerics not powerful enough for ya? Sick of fighters and barbarians always dominating in all the high level games? :D I could see using caster level in some manner (not "+1 DC per caster level," of course), but only if I elimiated the spell-level and attribute score as DC modifiers, but why invent a new system that simple maintains the present balance?
Thiez 06-02-06, 02:57 PM	Use psionics. For most powers, you have this 'each +2 power points you spend on this power increase the DC by 1'. Check it out :)
MJ the Prophet 06-02-06, 03:09 PM	Yes, psionics does have a scaling save DC, but that is only because they are spending more effort. Effectively, every 2 power points they spend increases the level of the power by 1, which should increase the save DC by 1.
Harliquinn 06-02-06, 03:27 PM	Well my statement was made for a baseline spell being cast. A level 5 caster could have the same feats as a level 20 caster for raising the DC (Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus) so those can be removed from the calculation. There may be specific PrC's or items that increase the DC's, but those are campaign specific, so we'll remove those. Therefore, we are left with the stat increases. The difference between a 20th level caster and a 4th level caster will at most be 4 stat boosts. Assuming they all go to the casting stat... Level 5 Caster Casting Stat: 18 = 17 base + 1@4th Level 5 Caster's DC for a 3rd level spell: 17 = 10 (Base) + 3 (Spell Lvl) + 4 (Stat) Level 20 Caster Casting Stat: 22 = 17 base + 5@20th Level 20 Caster's DC for a 3rd level spell: 19 = 10 (Base) + 3 (Spell Lvl) + 6 (Stat) ============ Level 20 Target (Stat: 14 for resist) Saving Throw (Good Prog): 14 = 12 (Base) + 2 (Stat) Chance to Save against 5th: 90% Chance to save against 20th: 80% (Difference of 10% - 9% higher chance to fail) 9% higher chance to fail a save isn't a large gap for 15 levels of spellcasting. As mentioned, items, PrC's etc are all factored in as well, but the targets will also have items to increase saves, and typically your ability to save against a spell increases faster than the ability to increase the save DC for that spell. There are fewer items, feats, PrC's that increase DC's than there are items, feats, PrC's that increase saving throws. Harliquinn
MrkGrismer 06-02-06, 04:04 PM	You are forgetting about item stat boosts, another +3 DC pre-epic. As well as Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, +2 more. There is also the option of using the Heighten Spell metamagic feat.
Harliquinn 06-02-06, 05:01 PM	A caster can have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus by level 5, so those balance out (Can be removed). Item Stat bonuses will tend to even out, since the 'target' of a spell will likely have Stat bonus items that increase his save as well. Heighten spell is a viable option but also uses a higher level slot (the equivalent of casting a spell of that level).
Seeker95 06-02-06, 05:06 PM	Though the current system means that a 20th level character has almost the same difficulty avoiding a suggestion cast by a 5th level caster as they do against a 20th level caster.Yep. A suggestion is a suggestion is a suggestion. Just like a 20th level fighter takes as much damage from a longsword swung by a 1st level fighter as he does from that same longsword swung by a 20th level fighter. The 20th level fighter just gets to swing it more times, and probably adds more strength bonus.
Harliquinn 06-02-06, 06:43 PM	Yep. A suggestion is a suggestion is a suggestion. Just like a 20th level fighter takes as much damage from a longsword swung by a 1st level fighter as he does from that same longsword swung by a 20th level fighter. The 20th level fighter just gets to swing it more times, and probably adds more strength bonus. Your analogy is a bit flawed actually. The real analogy would have to speak to how often a 5th level fighter would hit a 20th level opponent as opposed to how often a 20th level fighter would hit the same opponent. A saving throw is functionally equivalent to an attack roll, not the damage. The effects of the spell equate to the damage of the weapon. With the simplest of comparisons, the 20th level fighter has an additional +15 to hit over the 5th level fighter against the same opponent. I'm not saying in this thread that I feel mages are underpowered at higher levels. However, to continue your analogy along: A fighter at 20th using a non-magical dagger that he had at 5th level is still going to have a much easier time hitting a level 20 opponent than he had at level 5 (An increase of +15 plus iterative attacks). A wizard at 20th has a slight increase in chance to affect a level 20 opponent than he did at level 5 with the same low level spell (This is accounted for in stat bonuses only in a baseline case).
Erak 06-02-06, 07:01 PM	How about 4 Wishes at 20th to get +4 inherant bonus to Int/Wis. That's an additional +2 to the DC.
Inigo Carmine 06-02-06, 07:05 PM	A saving throw is functionally equivalent to an attack roll, not the damage. The effects of the spell equate to the damage of the weapon. With the simplest of comparisons, the 20th level fighter has an additional +15 to hit over the 5th level fighter against the same opponent. But unlike with weapons, spells increase in potency (significantly) as a caster levels up. If fireball still only did 5d6 damage at level 20, you'd have a case for increasing the saving throw according to the caster's level. That being said, if you want to have a higher level caster cast a lower level spell at a higher save DC, there is already a mechanic in place for that: Heighten Spell.
Erak 06-02-06, 07:06 PM	So if you start with a 17 and then add 5 for stat boosts.......5 for inherant boosts.........6 for enhancement boosts, you end up with a 33 Int = +11 to base DC.
Seeker95 06-02-06, 07:23 PM	So if you start with a 17 and then add 5 for stat boosts.......5 for inherant boosts.........6 for enhancement boosts, you end up with a 33 Int = +11 to base DC.Don't forget the raw addjustments to DC gained from spell focus (+1) Greater spell focus (another +1), Epic Spell Focus (yet another +1) and even Spell Focus (good) (add +2 to spells with the [good] descriptor) to bump up the save DC to +16 over and above the base. With Consecrate spell, you can add the [good] descriptor to every spell you cast. It only uses one slot higher.
runestar 06-03-06, 12:15 AM	It would definitely go a long way to making the lower level spells have continued use later on. I'd say +1 DC/level would be very much overpowered, but perhaps a +1 DC/5 levels (5th,10th,15th,20th) wouldn't be unreasonable. That's what heighten spell is for. ;) It's kinda retarded to have charm person(1st lv spell) have the same dc as dominate monster(9th lv spell), but occupy a much lower lv slot. You want higher save dcs, you will have to use higher lv slots. You can't get something for nothing. ;)
Harliquinn 06-03-06, 12:17 AM	Well as I've stated, a level 5 can have Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus so those aren't in the comparison. We aren't talking Epic. Also I've already said eliminate magical item bonuses as those are subjective to the campaign. Besides the target can have them as well which makes their save higher. I think I'm done with the discussion since I only find I am repeating myself to each person who mentions the same thing again.