Caster level house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster level house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
magnusfl
12-30-04, 02:41 PM in my game I use a house rule for determing the CL used for making items as I found in my game the curent rules fail with multiclassing so I allowed stacking of arcane or devine classes but at 50% for the aditional class and 33% of classes that are no true casters or cross(ie devine or arcane)

so for example a cleric paladain 10 10 gives cl 10 for cleric and 3 for the pal for a CL of 13

a cleric mage 10 10 would be 10 for cleric and 3 for mage so also 13

a cleric druid 10 10 would get 10 for cleric and 5 for druid giving CL 15

and of course a strait 20 cleric CL is 20

so far this has not over banced the game at all
Seeker95
12-30-04, 02:45 PM I disagree with the idea (but not with your experience in the game).

What happens to a wizard 10 / fighter 10? Can he make items better than a wizard 10 too?

At the same time, I have to ask... how does this affect item creation at all? Assuming it lets a wizard make a better wand of fireballs, is it really worth making an item at a higher caster level? Your approach doesn't let the caster cast spells of a higher level than he qualifies for, does it?
tarkin
12-30-04, 03:03 PM By "fail" you mean that multi-classers suck at making magic items

That is not a failure, that is a judgement call made by WoTC.

While the call may not be the best in the world it is far from the worst call they have made. I could see having Paladin hood help in making cleric items, but it certainly makes a lot more sense to say it does nothing. Cleric mage makes zero sense at all.

As for disbalancing the game, that is not the problem. Let's look at the worst abuse. Why should levels in fighter provide ANY help to making magic items?

The truth is that same difference is skill applies to Cleric and Wizard just as much.

Now, Paladin/Cleric or Sorceror/Wizard might have some valid argument, but that is about it.

If you were going to hire someone to build a Rocket, would ANY amount of experience as a Computer Programmer look good on their resume? No. You want someone with Rocket Design experience, or at least airplane design.

I could see allowing Sorceror and Wizard levels to count as 1/4 the other one or Paladin/Cleric that way. But the rest of this idea sounds illogical
UZI
01-01-05, 12:29 AM If you want a little extra ompf, take the Practiced Spellcaster Feat and count up to 4 levels from another class as caster levels. I see no reason why this would not apply to caster level requirements for other feats.
magnusfl
01-01-05, 03:09 PM I disagree with the idea (but not with your experience in the game).

What happens to a wizard 10 / fighter 10? Can he make items better than a wizard 10 too?

At the same time, I have to ask... how does this affect item creation at all? Assuming it lets a wizard make a better wand of fireballs, is it really worth making an item at a higher caster level? Your approach doesn't let the caster cast spells of a higher level than he qualifies for, does it?

Nope as a fighter has no experence in making item at all but it could be alowed to give then a 25% bonus for fighter lvs so every 4 lv of fighter would add 1 lv to CL this would not throw the balance out to much as a 10 mage 10 war would only have a 12 cl by the time there 20 which would alow them to make basic rings and a few low end staffs

and for the second question no it does not allow a caster to cast higher then his class as when casting only class caster lv applys not character caster lv
this house rule has not at all over balanced the game as CL for item creation is a Control rule which are often need for game balance but often there not designed well thus my house rule does not over balace the game at all as it does not hurt to allow the creation feats to multiclass as normal 10/10 of any caster class combo can not make rings or staffs which is not very logical at 20 level

Also if I were building a rocket I think computer programing experience would be good if you care at all about the rocket going were you want it, So yes it is important as all rockets use computer guidence build into the rockets unless you want the relibality of a target of a tester model rocket
magnusfl
01-01-05, 04:06 PM If you want a little extra ompf, take the Practiced Spellcaster Feat and count up to 4 levels from another class as caster levels. I see no reason why this would not apply to caster level requirements for other feats.

cool i not seen that feat yet as i do not have complete devine and yes I also say they could be used for item creation as well
however i say they would not stack
so only the better plus would apply for item creation house rule in my game
Seeker95
01-01-05, 06:08 PM Magnus,

What do you actually see as the benefit of this house rule?
magnusfl
01-01-05, 11:21 PM simply it alows the multiclassed characters, if they want to?
to make items more aproprate to there level like strait classes do
Seeker95
01-02-05, 09:16 AM simply it alows the multiclassed characters, if they want to?
to make items more aproprate to there level like strait classes doCan you give an example of an item a Clr10/Wiz10 could make under your system that he cannot make under the existing system?
magnusfl
01-03-05, 12:11 AM Can you give an example of an item a Clr10/Wiz10 could make under your system that he cannot make under the existing system?

under normal rules a 10/10 can not make any rings or staffs as min is 12 CL

under my house rule
you get 10CL for your cleric class
and as the mage adding lv you take 10CL and divide by 3 as it is a not a devine class as cleric which give a 3.3333
rounding down you get 3 CL so you can add the 3 CL to the 10 CL geting an item creation CL of 13 which open up rings as staffs but you still must meet the min req by the item but at 13 CL not 10 CL as under normal rules

and you use 13 for min req lv
so for example you can make a braces of armor under normal rules,
you can make a plus 5AC bracer max
under my house rule it bumps it a little so under house rule you could make a plus 6AC bracer as your CL 13
but not the plus 7AC as that CL 14 nor plus 8AC as thats is CL 16 that a strait caster could make at the same total character level
Seeker95
01-03-05, 07:36 AM That is a benefit, and one that I do not find unbalanced. All it allows is qualification for item creation Feats and a few of the armor/weapon/stat increase items. For that, I'd say no big deal. I'd even allow a 1:1 ratio, limited to "effective caster levels" only (paladin CL = 1/2 paladin level, etc.)
TheRulerofTheUniverse
01-03-05, 11:19 AM It does seem to be a solution to a problem that was never really there, however, as although it is not inherently unbalancing in itself it nontheless seems to be an undesirable step. A player knows that in multiclassing they must sacrefice their advancement in some areas for skills they would not possess otherwise.

Additionally, from a roleplaying point of view it does not make sense - if a character has been focusing on the skills of a Cleric or a Fighter it does not make sense for their proficiency in crafting arcane magic items to increase at the same time, albeit at a slower rate.
magnusfl
01-03-05, 03:10 PM It does seem to be a solution to a problem that was never really there, however, as although it is not inherently unbalancing in itself it nontheless seems to be an undesirable step. A player knows that in multiclassing they must sacrefice their advancement in some areas for skills they would not possess otherwise.

yes but over all a multiclaser is often not equal to a strait class in power
and I do not think this was intended by Woc and if you think this is a step in the wrong direction what do you think of the practiced spellcaster feat.
With that a 5lv war who take 1 lv in mage can make the same items as a 5th lv mage plus throws magic missle as a 5th lv mage ie 3 missles

this feat was put in by woc to fix the CL issue with multicasting so they must of thought there was a problem with it to.

Additionally, from a roleplaying point of view it does not make sense - if a character has been focusing on the skills of a Cleric or a Fighter it does not make sense for their proficiency in crafting arcane magic items to increase at the same time, albeit at a slower rate.

a slower level is fine but a bit extreme when a character that a true total casters at 39 still can not make all non epic items and my house rule only deals with game mechanics not roleplaying at all

and in real life we all gain experence to any intrest we have for example I am a part time blacksmith who also dabbles in jewel craft and weaponsmithing both these skils has made me a better more artistic blacksmith and close in skill as my friend who is a strait blacksmith thouh he is a bit better in blacksmithing, as he only does blacksmithing I am close to his skill in blacksmithing and lately he often comes to me for my skills in weapomsmithing and jewery now and we both started at the same time under tutalage of our House master in the SCA
TheRulerofTheUniverse
01-04-05, 04:57 PM yes but over all a multiclaser is often not equal to a strait class in power

Although Mystra's Chosen have been multiclassed into uselessness, this reflects more on how badly they've been statted than on the general weakness of multiclassed characters. If a multiclass Wizard/Fighter were stood next to a single class wizard of the same ECL I doubt my money would be on the Wizard.

and I do not think this was intended by Woc and if you think this is a step in the wrong direction what do you think of the practiced spellcaster feat.
With that a 5lv war who take 1 lv in mage can make the same items as a 5th lv mage plus throws magic missle as a 5th lv mage ie 3 missles
this feat was put in by woc to fix the CL issue with multicasting so they must of thought there was a problem with it to.

The only area in which multiclass spellcasters lose out in a substantial way, however, is when they face foes with Spell Resistace, especially at Epic level, where most foes, especially Abominations, have SR of CR+12 meaning that those who multiclass simply cannot compete. I accept that the Practiced Spellcaster feat was one way of combating this serious problem although it is not without flaws, as you have highlighted.

I feel, however, that the difficulty that multiclass spellcasters have in harming foes with Spell Resistance is indicative of a problem with the system governing Spell Resistace rather than a problem with the way that multiclassed spellcasters are handled.

and in real life we all gain experence to any intrest we have for example I am a part time blacksmith who also dabbles in jewel craft and weaponsmithing both these skils has made me a better more artistic blacksmith and close in skill as my friend who is a strait blacksmith thouh he is a bit better in blacksmithing, as he only does blacksmithing I am close to his skill in blacksmithing and lately he often comes to me for my skills in weapomsmithing and jewery now and we both started at the same time under tutalage of our House master in the SCA

Indeed, but would your skills in blacksmithing and jewel craft be of any help if you were to become an economist. Although I am willing (but not eager) to be proven wrong, I suspect not.

What you are suggesting is perhaps an application of skill synergy to effective class levels with regard to certain abilities. This would be an interesting area to explore, as it would help combat certain problems that have arisen in 3rd ed that were not present in the second.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magnusfl 12-30-04, 02:41 PM	in my game I use a house rule for determing the CL used for making items as I found in my game the curent rules fail with multiclassing so I allowed stacking of arcane or devine classes but at 50% for the aditional class and 33% of classes that are no true casters or cross(ie devine or arcane) so for example a cleric paladain 10 10 gives cl 10 for cleric and 3 for the pal for a CL of 13 a cleric mage 10 10 would be 10 for cleric and 3 for mage so also 13 a cleric druid 10 10 would get 10 for cleric and 5 for druid giving CL 15 and of course a strait 20 cleric CL is 20 so far this has not over banced the game at all
Seeker95 12-30-04, 02:45 PM	I disagree with the idea (but not with your experience in the game). What happens to a wizard 10 / fighter 10? Can he make items better than a wizard 10 too? At the same time, I have to ask... how does this affect item creation at all? Assuming it lets a wizard make a better wand of fireballs, is it really worth making an item at a higher caster level? Your approach doesn't let the caster cast spells of a higher level than he qualifies for, does it?
tarkin 12-30-04, 03:03 PM	By "fail" you mean that multi-classers suck at making magic items That is not a failure, that is a judgement call made by WoTC. While the call may not be the best in the world it is far from the worst call they have made. I could see having Paladin hood help in making cleric items, but it certainly makes a lot more sense to say it does nothing. Cleric mage makes zero sense at all. As for disbalancing the game, that is not the problem. Let's look at the worst abuse. Why should levels in fighter provide ANY help to making magic items? The truth is that same difference is skill applies to Cleric and Wizard just as much. Now, Paladin/Cleric or Sorceror/Wizard might have some valid argument, but that is about it. If you were going to hire someone to build a Rocket, would ANY amount of experience as a Computer Programmer look good on their resume? No. You want someone with Rocket Design experience, or at least airplane design. I could see allowing Sorceror and Wizard levels to count as 1/4 the other one or Paladin/Cleric that way. But the rest of this idea sounds illogical
UZI 01-01-05, 12:29 AM	If you want a little extra ompf, take the Practiced Spellcaster Feat and count up to 4 levels from another class as caster levels. I see no reason why this would not apply to caster level requirements for other feats.
magnusfl 01-01-05, 03:09 PM	I disagree with the idea (but not with your experience in the game). What happens to a wizard 10 / fighter 10? Can he make items better than a wizard 10 too? At the same time, I have to ask... how does this affect item creation at all? Assuming it lets a wizard make a better wand of fireballs, is it really worth making an item at a higher caster level? Your approach doesn't let the caster cast spells of a higher level than he qualifies for, does it? Nope as a fighter has no experence in making item at all but it could be alowed to give then a 25% bonus for fighter lvs so every 4 lv of fighter would add 1 lv to CL this would not throw the balance out to much as a 10 mage 10 war would only have a 12 cl by the time there 20 which would alow them to make basic rings and a few low end staffs and for the second question no it does not allow a caster to cast higher then his class as when casting only class caster lv applys not character caster lv this house rule has not at all over balanced the game as CL for item creation is a Control rule which are often need for game balance but often there not designed well thus my house rule does not over balace the game at all as it does not hurt to allow the creation feats to multiclass as normal 10/10 of any caster class combo can not make rings or staffs which is not very logical at 20 level Also if I were building a rocket I think computer programing experience would be good if you care at all about the rocket going were you want it, So yes it is important as all rockets use computer guidence build into the rockets unless you want the relibality of a target of a tester model rocket
magnusfl 01-01-05, 04:06 PM	If you want a little extra ompf, take the Practiced Spellcaster Feat and count up to 4 levels from another class as caster levels. I see no reason why this would not apply to caster level requirements for other feats. cool i not seen that feat yet as i do not have complete devine and yes I also say they could be used for item creation as well however i say they would not stack so only the better plus would apply for item creation house rule in my game
Seeker95 01-01-05, 06:08 PM	Magnus, What do you actually see as the benefit of this house rule?
magnusfl 01-01-05, 11:21 PM	simply it alows the multiclassed characters, if they want to? to make items more aproprate to there level like strait classes do
Seeker95 01-02-05, 09:16 AM	simply it alows the multiclassed characters, if they want to? to make items more aproprate to there level like strait classes doCan you give an example of an item a Clr10/Wiz10 could make under your system that he cannot make under the existing system?
magnusfl 01-03-05, 12:11 AM	Can you give an example of an item a Clr10/Wiz10 could make under your system that he cannot make under the existing system? under normal rules a 10/10 can not make any rings or staffs as min is 12 CL under my house rule you get 10CL for your cleric class and as the mage adding lv you take 10CL and divide by 3 as it is a not a devine class as cleric which give a 3.3333 rounding down you get 3 CL so you can add the 3 CL to the 10 CL geting an item creation CL of 13 which open up rings as staffs but you still must meet the min req by the item but at 13 CL not 10 CL as under normal rules and you use 13 for min req lv so for example you can make a braces of armor under normal rules, you can make a plus 5AC bracer max under my house rule it bumps it a little so under house rule you could make a plus 6AC bracer as your CL 13 but not the plus 7AC as that CL 14 nor plus 8AC as thats is CL 16 that a strait caster could make at the same total character level
Seeker95 01-03-05, 07:36 AM	That is a benefit, and one that I do not find unbalanced. All it allows is qualification for item creation Feats and a few of the armor/weapon/stat increase items. For that, I'd say no big deal. I'd even allow a 1:1 ratio, limited to "effective caster levels" only (paladin CL = 1/2 paladin level, etc.)
TheRulerofTheUniverse 01-03-05, 11:19 AM	It does seem to be a solution to a problem that was never really there, however, as although it is not inherently unbalancing in itself it nontheless seems to be an undesirable step. A player knows that in multiclassing they must sacrefice their advancement in some areas for skills they would not possess otherwise. Additionally, from a roleplaying point of view it does not make sense - if a character has been focusing on the skills of a Cleric or a Fighter it does not make sense for their proficiency in crafting arcane magic items to increase at the same time, albeit at a slower rate.
magnusfl 01-03-05, 03:10 PM	It does seem to be a solution to a problem that was never really there, however, as although it is not inherently unbalancing in itself it nontheless seems to be an undesirable step. A player knows that in multiclassing they must sacrefice their advancement in some areas for skills they would not possess otherwise. yes but over all a multiclaser is often not equal to a strait class in power and I do not think this was intended by Woc and if you think this is a step in the wrong direction what do you think of the practiced spellcaster feat. With that a 5lv war who take 1 lv in mage can make the same items as a 5th lv mage plus throws magic missle as a 5th lv mage ie 3 missles this feat was put in by woc to fix the CL issue with multicasting so they must of thought there was a problem with it to. Additionally, from a roleplaying point of view it does not make sense - if a character has been focusing on the skills of a Cleric or a Fighter it does not make sense for their proficiency in crafting arcane magic items to increase at the same time, albeit at a slower rate. a slower level is fine but a bit extreme when a character that a true total casters at 39 still can not make all non epic items and my house rule only deals with game mechanics not roleplaying at all and in real life we all gain experence to any intrest we have for example I am a part time blacksmith who also dabbles in jewel craft and weaponsmithing both these skils has made me a better more artistic blacksmith and close in skill as my friend who is a strait blacksmith thouh he is a bit better in blacksmithing, as he only does blacksmithing I am close to his skill in blacksmithing and lately he often comes to me for my skills in weapomsmithing and jewery now and we both started at the same time under tutalage of our House master in the SCA
TheRulerofTheUniverse 01-04-05, 04:57 PM	yes but over all a multiclaser is often not equal to a strait class in power Although Mystra's Chosen have been multiclassed into uselessness, this reflects more on how badly they've been statted than on the general weakness of multiclassed characters. If a multiclass Wizard/Fighter were stood next to a single class wizard of the same ECL I doubt my money would be on the Wizard. and I do not think this was intended by Woc and if you think this is a step in the wrong direction what do you think of the practiced spellcaster feat. With that a 5lv war who take 1 lv in mage can make the same items as a 5th lv mage plus throws magic missle as a 5th lv mage ie 3 missles this feat was put in by woc to fix the CL issue with multicasting so they must of thought there was a problem with it to. The only area in which multiclass spellcasters lose out in a substantial way, however, is when they face foes with Spell Resistace, especially at Epic level, where most foes, especially Abominations, have SR of CR+12 meaning that those who multiclass simply cannot compete. I accept that the Practiced Spellcaster feat was one way of combating this serious problem although it is not without flaws, as you have highlighted. I feel, however, that the difficulty that multiclass spellcasters have in harming foes with Spell Resistance is indicative of a problem with the system governing Spell Resistace rather than a problem with the way that multiclassed spellcasters are handled. and in real life we all gain experence to any intrest we have for example I am a part time blacksmith who also dabbles in jewel craft and weaponsmithing both these skils has made me a better more artistic blacksmith and close in skill as my friend who is a strait blacksmith thouh he is a bit better in blacksmithing, as he only does blacksmithing I am close to his skill in blacksmithing and lately he often comes to me for my skills in weapomsmithing and jewery now and we both started at the same time under tutalage of our House master in the SCA Indeed, but would your skills in blacksmithing and jewel craft be of any help if you were to become an economist. Although I am willing (but not eager) to be proven wrong, I suspect not. What you are suggesting is perhaps an application of skill synergy to effective class levels with regard to certain abilities. This would be an interesting area to explore, as it would help combat certain problems that have arisen in 3rd ed that were not present in the second.