Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thompsja 02-07-07, 12:45 PM	This is a rules clarification question. A wizard advances to 12th level, and takes the Craft Weapons and Armor Feat. The wizard decides he wants to make a +4 Brilliant Energy Sword. He has sufficient cash to pay for raw materials. The item creation rules state that you must have three times the level of the bonus, for each of the plusses or special ability. So, at 12th level, we just make the level requirement for the feature. However, the DMG notes that the caster level for the brilliant energy special feature is 14th level. Doest this mean: a - The caster makes the weapon, but the caster level to resist dispel magic and such is only 12th, or b. The caster cannot make the item, since it must have a caster level of 14th. In a similiar vein, given time and money, could a 9th level caster with Craft Rod create a Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod?
Vegepygmy 02-07-07, 01:03 PM	A. The "three times the level of the bonus" rule applies only to enhancement bonuses. The rules for magic item creation permit a character creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item. The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with the item creation feat being used to create the item (the “creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example, can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat create items containing any spell (assuming access to the spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells? Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character).So yes, a 9th level caster with Craft Rod and Quicken Spell could create a greater metamagic rod of Quicken Spell.
mvincent 02-07-07, 01:05 PM	the DMG notes that the caster level for the brilliant energy special feature is 14th level.From the 3.5 FAQ: "Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)" given time and money, could a 9th level caster with Craft Rod create a Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod?Yes
Someone 02-07-07, 01:07 PM	The +4 brilliant energy weapon is effectively a +8 weapon, are you certain that he has the 64k to make it? Anyway, you have to meet the higher of either enhancement bonus x3, or the highest CL of whatever powers are to be added. So its b, the caster cannot make this weapon yet. As for the metamagic rods, I've always found the arbitrary use of a wish spell instead of some other more reasonable mechanic rather wonky.
Vegepygmy 02-07-07, 01:16 PM	As for the metamagic rods, I've always found the arbitrary use of a wish spell instead of some other more reasonable mechanic rather wonky.:confused:
Merestil Haye 02-07-07, 02:36 PM	However, the DMG notes that the caster level for the brilliant energy special feature is 14th level. Doest this mean: a - The caster makes the weapon, but the caster level to resist dispel magic and such is only 12th, or b. The caster cannot make the item, since it must have a caster level of 14th.The prereqs for Brilliant Energy are Gaseous Form, Continual Flame and the item creation feat. That makes the minimum for this enhancement 5. A +4 Brilliant Energy weapon made by this wizard will be CL12, the DC of a caster level check against it will be 23 and it has saving throw modifiers of +8 if unattended. In a similiar vein, given time and money, could a 9th level caster with Craft Rod create a Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod?I can't see any reason why not in the rules. I have a houserule preventing it though. (The rule is that any metamagic rod has an additional prerequisite that the creator be of sufficient level to cast spells of the maximum level that the rod can affect - thus the CL for a Lesser rod is 5, for a regular rod is 11 and for a Greater rod is 17.) As for the metamagic rods, I've always found the arbitrary use of a wish spell instead of some other more reasonable mechanic rather wonky. :confused:I sort of assumed Someone was reckoning that there was a "hidden prereq" of Wish to make the metamagic rods, thus justifying CL17. As far as I'm concerned, the CL in the item description means exactly nothing. There is no justification whatever for the CL17 except that it is the lowest CL at which a regular caster can cast 9th level spells, thus affecting all possible spells. Going by what is written, the minimum CL is 1.
jaelis 02-07-07, 03:00 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)" However, for weapon abilties it is specifically stated otherwise: Caster Level for Weapons The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. At least that's how it sounds to me. Edit: Oh but maybe it's saying the requirement is on the CL of the item, not the caster? That would be more consistent... I really wish they just called it "item level." The caster level would be the caster level of the creator, and the item level would set how the item worked. That would resolve a lot of confusion.
Merestil Haye 02-07-07, 03:44 PM	However, for weapon abilties it is specifically stated otherwise:Caster Level for Weapons The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. At least that's how it sounds to me. Edit: Oh but maybe it's saying the requirement is on the CL of the item, not the caster? That would be more consistent... What they are saying is that in order for a caster to craft a weapon with an enhancement bonus and one or more special abilities, he must be high enough level to meet the highest single requirement for any of the enhancements and abilities. Specifically for this item he must be capable of casting the Gaseous Form spell (requiring CL 5), the Continual Flame spell (requiring CL 3) and be able to give a +4 enhancement bonus (requiring CL 12). What they are not saying is that for weapon enhancements the CL listed in the special ability is a prerequisite to craft that item. What it is is a suggestion for the default level - nothing more than that.
Lafing Cat 02-07-07, 06:29 PM	As far as I'm concerned, the CL in the item description means exactly nothing. There is no justification whatever for the CL17 except that it is the lowest CL at which a regular caster can cast 9th level spells, thus affecting all possible spells. Going by what is written, the minimum CL is 1. Actually, Craft Rod requires CL 9. So the minimum CL is 9 And there actually are weapon special abilities with caster level pre-requisites. Spellstoring is an example of one such, and note how it *explicitly* says that caster level is a prerequisite. Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. So yes, to make a +1 Brilliant Energy weapon, you must only be CL 5 To make a +1 Spellstoring weapon, you must be CL 12. The "The higher of the two pre-requisites" is referring to "3 times the enhancement bonus" or "the minimum level to cast the spell" Not "3 times the effective + cost of a non-enhancement bonus"
Merestil Haye 02-07-07, 07:09 PM	Actually, Craft Rod requires CL 9. So the minimum CL is 9Sorry, no. The Craft feat prerequisite is never a limiter on the CL of an item made with that craft feat. You completely ignore it for the purposes of determining the minimum caster level. And there actually are weapon special abilities with caster level pre-requisites. Spellstoring is an example of one such, and note how it *explicitly* says that caster level is a prerequisite.So? I said that the CL value given is never any form of prerequisite. It isn't. If a weapon special ability also includes a statement that the crafter must be a specified level, then that is a prereq. But the entry identified as the CL is in no sense a prerequisite.
Vegepygmy 02-07-07, 07:23 PM	The Craft feat prerequisite is never a limiter on the CL of an item made with that craft feat. You completely ignore it for the purposes of determining the minimum caster level.Merestil is correct. Look, for example, at the ring of feather falling. It has a CL 1st, despite the fact that Forge Ring requires CL 12th.
SALDAR 02-07-07, 11:27 PM	From the magic item creation section of the SRD: "• Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)." Brilliant Energy has CL 16th. So the creator must meet this CL to create a weapon with this special ability.
SALDAR 02-07-07, 11:31 PM	The Craft feat prerequisite is never a limiter on the CL of an item made with that craft feat. You completely ignore it for the purposes of determining the minimum caster level. Merestil is correct. Look, for example, at the ring of feather falling. It has a CL 1st, despite the fact that Forge Ring requires CL 12th. Not correct. The creator must be 12th level to craft the ring. The Forge Ring feat is a prerequisite that puts a higher minimum on the creator's level. See my previous post.
jaelis 02-07-07, 11:44 PM	(quote from srd) Which srd did you take that from? Because the text you quote was errata'd to: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. which is quite different. The Forge Ring feat is a prerequisite that puts a higher minimum on the creator's level. See my previous post. Yes, a caster must generally be 12th level to create a ring. But that has zero bearing on the caster level of the item.
Lafing Cat 02-08-07, 12:26 AM	Sorry, no. The Craft feat prerequisite is never a limiter on the CL of an item made with that craft feat. You completely ignore it for the purposes of determining the minimum caster level. While you're technically right, I see no reason why anyone ever *would* make make a CL 1 Metamagic rod. An increased CL doesn't cost any more on metamagic rod, and provides benefits vs Dispelling and Saves.
Someone 02-08-07, 12:33 AM	I sort of assumed Someone was reckoning that there was a "hidden prereq" of Wish to make the metamagic rods, thus justifying CL17.I meant precisely that. Though I could have sworn that wish was in there somewhere... I just can't seem to find it again. So allow me to rephrase my earlier statement: "the arbitrary CL 17, even for a lesser rod of silent metamagic, has always struck me as wonky."
SALDAR 02-08-07, 02:55 PM	Which srd did you take that from? From the Wizards SRD page here: http://wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsI.rtf It seems they haven't applied the errata to it. Although I do find the change from the errata interesting. Before the errata, the brilliant energy weapon would have needed a 16th level creator and was affected by magic as if it were 16th level. Now the same item can be created by a 5th level caster and is still affected by magic as if it were 16th level. The CL of magic items seems to lack consistency. For example, the Brilliant Energy weapon can be created by a 5th level caster and resists magic at 16th level while at the same time a Ring of Feather Falling would need a 12th level creator (due to Forge Ring) but resists magic as if it were only 1st level.
Vegepygmy 02-08-07, 03:21 PM	It seems they haven't applied the errata to it. Although I do find the change from the errata interesting. Before the errata, the brilliant energy weapon would have needed a 16th level creator...No, the rules were the same (and have been since 3.0). They just weren't as clear. ...and was affected by magic as if it were 16th level. Now the same item can be created by a 5th level caster and is still affected by magic as if it were 16th level.I don't follow you. A 5th level creator could make a +1 brilliant energy weapon. The CL of that weapon would be 5th (the lowest level at which he could cast gaseous form). The weapon would be affected by magic as if its CL was 5th (because that's what it is), not 16th. The CL of magic items seems to lack consistency.They certainly do. If you ask me, it's one of the main reasons so many people are confused about CL being a prerequisite.
Lafing Cat 02-08-07, 03:23 PM	From the Wizards SRD page here: http://wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsI.rtf It seems they haven't applied the errata to it. Although I do find the change from the errata interesting. Before the errata, the brilliant energy weapon would have needed a 16th level creator and was affected by magic as if it were 16th level. Now the same item can be created by a 5th level caster and is still affected by magic as if it were 16th level. No, if created by a 5th level caster, its affected by magic as if it were 5th level. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. If the creator is level 5, the caster level is 5. The reason why the Ring of Featherfalling is crafted at CL 1 is because it emulates a spell, and as such has to use the CL*Spell level formula. making one at CL 2 would cost twice as much. Weapon mods don't emulate spells, (and neither do the metamagic rod) so making one at your full CL doesn't cost any more.
jaelis 02-08-07, 03:24 PM	No, the rules were the same (and have been since 3.0). They just weren't as clear. I don't believe that is true. By the original wording, a wizard would need to be 16th level to make a brilliant energy weapon. That may or may not be how it was in 3.0, but the pre-errata rule was clear. I don't follow you. A 5th level creator could make a +1 brilliant energy weapon. The CL of that weapon would be 5th (the lowest level at which he could cast gaseous form). The weapon would be affected by magic as if its CL was 5th (because that what it is), not 16th. No, a standard brilliant energy weapon has a CL of 16, no matter who makes it. A wizard could choose to make it at CL 5 if he wanted, but that would be fairly dumb. He could choose to make it at CL 20, but most DMs would probably increase the price a bit, I would think. Lafing Cat, you're argument applies to potions, wands and scrolls only. For other items, the caster can set the item CL at whatever he wants, as long as it is high enough to accomodate the prereq spells. The item's CL is chosen by the creator, not equal to the creator's. (The 's makes a big difference!)
Merestil Haye 02-08-07, 03:42 PM	I don't believe that is true. By the original wording, a wizard would need to be 16th level to make a brilliant energy weapon. That may or may not be how it was in 3.0, but the pre-errata rule was clear.It is in fact true. In hindsight (ie after the errata was issued) it's quite plain that the CL and prerequisites are separate and distinct. That they were meant to be is shown by the fact that an item with an actual caster level prerequisite would not have needed the separate statement in the prerequisites. No, a standard brilliant energy weapon has a CL of 16, no matter who makes it. A wizard could choose to make it at CL 5 if he wanted, but that would be fairly dumb. He could choose to make it at CL 20, but most DMs would probably increase the price a bit, I would think.Standard CLs are not relevant to Vegepygmy's comment. He specified a 5th level creator - who might be a cleric or a wizard, incidentally - therefore the CL would indeed be 5. My guess is that the listed CL is high because the cost of the item is. But in all honesty, you shouldn't use the DMG's CL at all. Pick your own. I admit I haven't yet found one where the listed CL is too low, but it wouldn't surprise me to find one one day. Lafing Cat, you're argument applies to potions, wands and scrolls only. For other items, the caster can set the item CL at whatever he wants, as long as it is high enough to accomodate the prereq spells. The item's CL is chosen by the creator, not equal to the creators.Some items cast spells. For such items, the CL sets the duration of the spell cast when the item is activated. It's entirely reasonable to double the cost of a ring of Feather Falling at CL2 because the duration of the safe fall increases. Other such items include the Rings of Invisibility and Blink (speaking of which, the CL listed for that should be 5 because that's what it has been priced at).
Vegepygmy 02-08-07, 03:43 PM	I don't believe that is true. By the original wording, a wizard would need to be 16th level to make a brilliant energy weapon.No, he wouldn't, but that was a very common misunderstanding of the original wording. Hence the errata (which actually states: "The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading."). That may or may not be how it was in 3.0, but the pre-errata rule was clear.If it had been clear, it wouldn't have needed the errata. No, a standard brilliant energy weapon has a CL of 16, no matter who makes it.A brilliant energy weapon crafted by a 5th level creator is non-standard and has a CL 5th. The CL entry for an item is the default, not the CL in every case. A wizard could choose to make it at CL 5 if he wanted, but that would be fairly dumb.Unless, of course, he was only a 5th level caster, in which case that's the highest he can set the CL. Lafing Cat, you're argument applies to potions, wands and scrolls only. For other items, the caster can set the item CL at whatever he wants, as long as it is high enough to accomodate the prereq spells. The item's CL is chosen by the creator, not equal to the creator's. (The 's makes a big difference!)A creator cannot set the CL of an item above his own, regardless of whether it is a potion, wand, ring, wondrous item, etc. He cannot set the CL any lower than the minimum necessary to cast the prerequisite spells.
jaelis 02-08-07, 03:56 PM	A creator cannot set the CL of an item above his own, regardless of whether it is a potion, wand, ring, wondrous item, etc. He cannot set the CL any lower than the minimum necessary to cast the prerequisite spells. That's what the rule used to say. It doesn't any longer. How are you reading it that way?
Vegepygmy 02-08-07, 04:10 PM	Here's the section, with the deleted sentences stricken, and the added sentences in boldface: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibility at caster level 3rd (making it last 3 minutes), caster level 4th (4 minutes), or caster level 5th (5 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.The errata makes it clear that the minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given (which might be higher than the minimum caster level needed to cast the prerequisite spells). It changes nothing in regard to the maximum.
jaelis 02-08-07, 05:52 PM	Hmm. It seems to me that the first line tells you how it works for wands, potions and scrolls. That's it, nothing in the rest of that sentence applies to anything else. (If I said, "For swords, axes, and knives, the weapon must be kept sharp," you would have no reason to think that hammers or spears need to be kept sharp.) The second line says how everything else works, and it says that the caster determines the CL, with the one restriction that the CL has to be high enough to meet the prereqs. No restriction on the maximum CL is given or suggested. So just be clear, you are indeed asserting that only level 20 characters can make sovereign glue? Edit: No you're not. You're just saying that only a level 20 character can make "standard" sovereign glue.
chonjurer 02-08-07, 06:55 PM	Skip's specter lives on.... :-/ There was a time when WOTC announced emphatically that caster levels listed in the DMG were pre-requisites. After much brow-beating from various quarters (myself included), they changed course. Then they left the mess of "how do you determine the price and/or caster level of an item that has no obvious caster level benefits apart from better saves against destructive spells?" And because they were so emphatic that they were pre-reqs in the first place there is much back-tracking and misplaced errata that still clogs the system.
Vegepygmy 02-08-07, 08:22 PM	Hmm. It seems to me that the first line tells you how it works for wands, potions and scrolls. That's it, nothing in the rest of that sentence applies to anything else. (If I said, "For swords, axes, and knives, the weapon must be kept sharp," you would have no reason to think that hammers or spears need to be kept sharp.) The second line says how everything else works, and it says that the caster determines the CL, with the one restriction that the CL has to be high enough to meet the prereqs. No restriction on the maximum CL is given or suggested.The first line tells you how it works for wands, potions, and scrolls. The second line tells you what is different about other items; those things that are not different remain the same. The alternative interpretation is that a 1st level caster can somehow create a magic item with a CL 20th, which can only euphemistically be described as "unreasonable." So just be clear, you are indeed asserting that only level 20 characters can make sovereign glue? Edit: No you're not. You're just saying that only a level 20 character can make "standard" sovereign glue.:cheer:
Vegepygmy 02-08-07, 08:27 PM	There was a time when WOTC announced emphatically that caster levels listed in the DMG were pre-requisites. After much brow-beating from various quarters (myself included), they changed course.Hmmm. I don't remember that. What I remember is Monte Cook stating quite emphatically that CL had never been intended as a prerequisite, but that they had done a god-awful job of explaining that. But maybe I missed the very earliest proclamations from WotC. Then they left the mess of "how do you determine the price and/or caster level of an item that has no obvious caster level benefits apart from better saves against destructive spells?"Which isn't really much of a mess. I mean, how big a deal is it to give an incredibly slight advantage to higher-level creators? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a magic item have to make its own saving throw or resist a targeted dispel magic.
jaelis 02-08-07, 09:13 PM	The first line tells you how it works for wands, potions, and scrolls. The second line tells you what is different about other items; those things that are not different remain the same. Well, I'm not here to tell anyone how they need to read things, but it sure doesn't look that way to me. That sounds to me like interpreting "Birds have feathers and lay eggs. Mammals have hair instead of feathers." as meaning that mammals lay eggs. Maybe that's how you would read it (not that you would think mammals lay eggs, but that the sentences are incorrectly claiming they do). The alternative interpretation is that a 1st level caster can somehow create a magic item with a CL 20th, which can only euphemistically be described as "unreasonable." Why? And is it any more unreasonable than saying all the sovereign glue you can buy in the world is made by some sort of obsessive cabal of level 20 wizards?
chonjurer 02-08-07, 09:38 PM	Hmmm. I don't remember that. What I remember is Monte Cook stating quite emphatically that CL had never been intended as a prerequisite, but that they had done a god-awful job of explaining that. But maybe I missed the very earliest proclamations from WotC. 3.0 FAQs quite frequently stated that it was. Which isn't really much of a mess. I mean, how big a deal is it to give an incredibly slight advantage to higher-level creators? I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a magic item have to make its own saving throw or resist a targeted dispel magic. It really is more of a mess than you think, because if the caster level is the average and/or standard caster level then they don't make a whit of sense as quoted in the DMG. For items with non-level dependent effects there is NO extra associated cost with having a higher caster level, ergo the standard one should be alot higher (and at least the mimimum to get the feat as all the crafters would craft it at maximum possible strength), or they should all be the same (assuming a normal distribution of all magic items and their creators). Now you see where the specter of "caster level as pre-requisite" is still hiding in the system.
Vegepygmy 02-09-07, 02:20 AM	That sounds to me like interpreting "Birds have feathers and lay eggs. Mammals have hair instead of feathers." as meaning that mammals lay eggs.No, but try: "Robins, blue jays, and sparrowhawks have feathers and lay eggs. Other birds have hair instead of feathers." That does imply that other birds lay eggs, but differ from robins, blue jays, and sparrowhawks in that they have hair instead of feathers. Why?Because "level" is used as a power metric throughout the game, and 99% of the time, one is limited to achieving results that are equal to or less than one's own level. And is it any more unreasonable than saying all the sovereign glue you can buy in the world is made by some sort of obsessive cabal of level 20 wizards?Not all you can buy; all you are assumed to buy. (Remember that the only real purpose of the default CLs is to provide a quick and easy answer for DMs on the rare occasions they actually need a number.) But yes, the default CLs are sometimes quite bizarre--sovereign glue being an excellent example.
Vegepygmy 02-09-07, 02:31 AM	3.0 FAQs quite frequently stated that it was.If you can actually cite one, I'd be curious to see it, because I honestly don't recall ever reading that. And the only copy of a 3.0 FAQ I have is the last one (dated 9/6/02). It really is more of a mess than you think, because if the caster level is the average and/or standard caster level then they don't make a whit of sense as quoted in the DMG.I agree they don't make any sense, but that doesn't make a "mess" of anything, IMO. For items with non-level dependent effects there is NO extra associated cost with having a higher caster level, ergo the standard one should be alot higher (and at least the mimimum to get the feat as all the crafters would craft it at maximum possible strength)...But not all "creators" necessarily have the feat. Remember that it is possible for two or more characters to contribute different prerequisites, and agree between themselves who is to be designated the "creator." And the creator sets the CL. Now you see where the specter of "caster level as pre-requisite" is still hiding in the system.Not really, because many of the CLs make no sense if CL was intended as a prerequisite (in that no one of the required level would bother making such items, in all likelihood). Ultimately, I imagine the default CLs as having been assigned almost at random. But maybe I'm wrong and the game designers had excellent reasons for assigning the numbers they did.
jaelis 02-09-07, 09:25 AM	No, but try: "Robins, blue jays, and sparrowhawks have feathers and lay eggs. Other birds have hair instead of feathers." That does imply that other birds lay eggs, but differ from robins, blue jays, and sparrowhawks in that they have hair instead of feathers. I can't agree with that. The two sentences you quote leave entirely open the possibility that other birds don't lay eggs. For instance, I would say this is completely sound (if factually incorrect) text: Robins, blue jays, and sparrowhawks have feathers and lay eggs. Other birds have hair instead of feathers, while a few bear live young. Because "level" is used as a power metric throughout the game, and 99% of the time, one is limited to achieving results that are equal to or less than one's own level. So we have: character level (and its close variants class level and caster level): OK, that's limited to your character level, but it's kind of trivial. (Actually, it's not hard at all to get your caster level above your character level.) spell level: This is related to character level in a nontrivial way. You wouldn't assume that a 9th level wizard can cast 9th level spells. So the connection is weak, though I grant that it is unusual for a caster to be able to cast a spell with spell level higher than his character level. encounter level: It is not at all unusual for an enounter level to exceed a party's character level. dungeon level: that's really unrelated. Monsters do get tougher as you go deeper (your power metric description is right on), but nothing says the top level of a dungeon is fit only for 1st level characters. Any others? Probably. But I think this illustrates that, while "level" is indeed a power metric, it's not tied strongly to character level as a rule. Not all you can buy; all you are assumed to buy. (Remember that the only real purpose of the default CLs is to provide a quick and easy answer for DMs on the rare occasions they actually need a number.) I wouldn't say it is so rare... dispel magics are pretty common I would say. For something like soveriegn glue, the high CL is an important quality of the item... if it were easily suppressed with dispel magic, it would be a lot less useful.
risner 02-09-07, 09:33 AM	If you can actually cite one, I'd be curious to see it, because I honestly don't recall ever reading that. And the only copy of a 3.0 FAQ I have is the last one (dated 9/6/02). I also just checked all the ones I had and never found any mention of "cl" in the 3.0 FAQ's. Can the OP of that theory post an example 3.0 FAQ that addresses this?
Vegepygmy 02-09-07, 05:44 PM	I can't agree with that. The two sentences you quote leave entirely open the possibility that other birds don't lay eggs.That why I said it implies it, and not that it necessitates it. So we have: character level... spell level... encounter level... dungeon level... Any others? Probably. But I think this illustrates that, while "level" is indeed a power metric, it's not tied strongly to character level as a rule.C'mon, don't be obtuse. We're not talking about character level, spell level, or any of those. We're talking about caster level. Give me one example (in addition to the one you're claiming) of a situation in the game where a caster can create a magical effect with a caster level greater than his own, and that fact isn't explicitly called out in the rules. I wouldn't say it is so rare... dispel magics are pretty common I would say.Area dispels and dispels targeted against individuals are pretty common, in my experience. Dispels targeted against magic items are exceedingly uncommon, in my experience.
jaelis 02-09-07, 07:53 PM	Give me one example (in addition to the one you're claiming) of a situation in the game where a caster can create a magical effect with a caster level greater than his own, and that fact isn't explicitly called out in the rules. Joe Bob the fighter, with caster level zero, glues a door shut with sovereign glue at caster level 20. I know you won't think that is a legitimate example, but my point is that you are implicitly already identifying the "caster level" of the item with the caster level for a spell. I don't myself see any clear reason to make that identification, because items generally are not spell effects. Why should they follow the general rules for spells (other than when they are plainly stated to do so)? I guess I feel like you're conflating the caster level of the item and the caster level of the creator. They are separate things. So here's another example you won't like: a 9th level cleric can cast raise dead on a (previously) level 20 wizard. The effect of the spell is to produce a caster level 19 wizard.
Vegepygmy 02-09-07, 08:11 PM	Joe Bob the fighter, with caster level zero, glues a door shut with sovereign glue at caster level 20. I know you won't think that is a legitimate example...You're right, because Joe Bob didn't create the glue. I guess I feel like you're conflating the caster level of the item and the caster level of the creator. They are separate things.Well, I'm definitely associating the two. You don't think they're unrelated, do you? So here's another example you won't like: a 9th level cleric can cast raise dead on a (previously) level 20 wizard. The effect of the spell is to produce a caster level 19 wizard.No, it isn't. If it were, raise dead would have a line that reads: "Effect: One living creature" (or something similar), rather than: "Target: Dead creature touched." FWIW, I like your examples; they're funny. :D But they're not valid.
jaelis 02-09-07, 09:13 PM	You don't think they're unrelated, do you? Well actually, yes, I more or less do. With plenty of exceptions... if the item actually produces a spell effect, then it is limited by the caster's level. And magic weapons have specific rules. But beyond that, no I think they are unrelated. But the basis for that conclusion is mainly the errata text that we obviously interpret differently... No, it isn't. If it were, raise dead would have a line that reads: "Effect: One living creature" (or something similar), rather than: "Target: Dead creature touched." Well, magic items aren't listed anywhere as spell effects either. I'm not sure you'd have an easy time defining "effect" in such a way to include crafting items but exclude my examples. (Unless you just say "effect" only includes spell effects and item crafting, but then it's hardly fair to ask for another example!) FWIW, I like your examples; they're funny. :D We please to aim!
boozerker 02-10-07, 12:10 AM	Gad, after reading these 2 pages, it's all confusing and I can't tell who is right. Well, it's probably correct that you don't have to be a certain level to make an item, but the particulars still haven't been laid down clearly. If someone could just outline it elegantly like the d20 core mechanic... Roll a d20. Add any relevant modifiers. Compare the result to a target number. At least match that number = success. That would be nice :)
jaelis 02-10-07, 10:46 AM	Holy cow! Looking at the magic item compendium preview, I think they may actually have fixed this. The augment crystals listed have two things: an item level and a caster level, that are not the same. Perhaps that means the "caster level" is now what it should be, the minimum caster level to create the item, while the "item level" is what it should be, the ability of the item to make saves and such. That would be totally cool.
boozerker 02-10-07, 11:09 AM	Holy cow! Looking at the magic item compendium preview, I think they may actually have fixed this. The augment crystals listed have two things: an item level and a caster level, that are not the same. Perhaps that means the "caster level" is now what it should be, the minimum caster level to create the item, while the "item level" is what it should be, the ability of the item to make saves and such. That would be totally cool. Is that preview on Wizards' site? If so, do you have a link?
jaelis 02-10-07, 11:13 AM	Is that preview on Wizards' site? If so, do you have a link? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a