Caster level penalty??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster level penalty??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
paradox1995
07-15-07, 11:35 AM Dan,
I need a ruling on something important as it relates to Weapons of Legacy.

Table 4-6 lists one of the costs as "Caster Level Penalty -1" and I need to know exactly what that means. I had assumed that it meant that my caster level was lower for things like caster level checks to dispel magic, spell damage which depends on caster level (ie, 1d6 per caster level or 1 round per level ), but that spells known and spell slots available would not be affected since they depend on class level. Is that right, or should my spells known and spell slots be reduced as well?

PHB page 181 describes caster level as "the caster's class level for the purpose of casting a particular spell." I'm taking the Weapons of Legacy table to mean that my caster level is now my class level minus 1 for the purpose of casting a particular spell, but I wanted to check with you guys and get your collective opinion first.

THANKS!:)
CantripN
07-15-07, 11:58 AM If it says "Caster Level", then you're correct. The other term being "Spellcaster Level."
dirkformica
07-15-07, 06:25 PM How might this affect a character when they first gain access to a new spell level? Wouldn't you need, say, a minimum caster level of 9 to cast a 5th level spell? If you only had a caster level of 8 (due to the penalty) would you still be able to cast your newly acquired 5th level spells?
Nom
07-16-07, 02:02 AM In general, "no".
paradox1995
07-16-07, 03:42 AM :confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize?
CantripN
07-16-07, 03:47 AM :confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize?

Hard to know.

On the one hand, you cannot choose to cast a spell at such a low caster level that it couldn't be cast at normally (Fireball is min. CL 5 for Wizards, CL 6 for Sorcerer, for instance).
On the other, you certainly have the spell slots... I'm sure you'll be able to put Metamagicked Spells in there, but regualr spells? I don't know.

I'd allow it, but I don't know what the RAW says of this.
Nom
07-16-07, 10:16 PM :confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize?Oh, you could memorise normally. The problem comes that you can't cast a spell at below it's minimum caster level. Thus, if you have a -1 caster level penalty at wiz5 and thus CL 4, you can prepare fireball in a level 3 slot but cannot actually cast it.
tarkin
07-17-07, 11:27 AM But you would be allowed to memorize and cast an extended Melf's Acid Arrow in the 3rd level slot.
Puca
07-17-07, 11:40 AM Id let you cast the spell. Nom has the RAW, no denying that, but the way I look at it, thats just too big a hit.

If you were to get a +1 caster-level, like from an ioun stone or something, it wouldnt allow you to cast spells of a level higher than normal. It just effects variables based on caster-level and makes them harder to dispel. So I just dont think the reverse should be true either.

Id let the fifth-level wizard cast Fireball, but it would only do 4d6.

Thats only my opinion. Nothing more.
You can use Practiced Spellcaster to make up for this penalty, just FYI.
JWT
07-17-07, 11:51 AM Oh, you could memorise normally. The problem comes that you can't cast a spell at below it's minimum caster level. Thus, if you have a -1 caster level penalty at wiz5 and thus CL 4, you can prepare fireball in a level 3 slot but cannot actually cast it.

I hadn't though about this before, but dropping caster level greatly changes the Wild Mage prestige class. 1/3 of her high levels spells would just fizzle! It certainly makes Practiced Spellcaster a must!
paradox1995
07-17-07, 04:35 PM Id let you cast the spell. Nom has the RAW, no denying that, but the way I look at it, thats just too big a hit.

If you were to get a +1 caster-level, like from an ioun stone or something, it wouldnt allow you to cast spells of a level higher than normal. It just effects variables based on caster-level and makes them harder to dispel. So I just dont think the reverse should be true either.

Id let the fifth-level wizard cast Fireball, but it would only do 4d6.

Thats only my opinion. Nothing more.
You can use Practiced Spellcaster to make up for this penalty, just FYI.

I think I am going to go with this method... as I agree its just to big a hit for a spellcaster... besides... the wepon of legacy penalty tabke we are using already reduces spell slots.

Thanks guys...
gbnogkfs
07-17-07, 05:55 PM Really, there is no hard rule saying "you cannot cast spells at caster level lower than the class level at which you gain access to that spell's level"
Lafing Cat
07-17-07, 06:03 PM There is a hard rule that says you cannot choose to cast a spell at a lower caster level than the minimum (generally spell level*2-1). I would say, that since you aren't choosing to reduce your caster level, but are forced to, that rule has no effect in this particular situation.

relevant quote

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
gbnogkfs
07-18-07, 08:38 AM uhm... yeah... I suppose you're right...:cool:
Leilond
07-18-07, 08:48 AM Everytime you cast a spell you choose the caster level, ALWAYS. Sometimes you can choose only one caster level (a 5th level wizard can cast fireball at 5th caster level, no more, no less) but that doesn't change that you choose a level.
The fact that the only level you can choose is an "illegal" choice make no difference, you cannot choose that caster level

The rules say that you can prepare a spell using a slot higher than the spell level (or use an higher level slot for a lower level spell if you do not prepare spells like sorcerers). Thus, if you're 5th level wizard but you have "caster level -1" penalty, the only things you can do is "use your 3rd level slot for 2nd level spells, and wait to become 6th level before preparing 3rd level spells"
If you are a 6th level sorceror and you have "-1 caster level" you have to use your 3rd level slots to cast 2nd level spells

This is my opinion
CantripN
07-18-07, 08:50 AM I wonder... Is this -1 CL for one class? If it is, it's rather useful for an Ultimate Magus.
JWT
07-20-07, 06:31 PM I wonder... Is this -1 CL for one class? If it is, it's rather useful for an Ultimate Magus.

Can you elaborate, CantripN? I think I may see where you are going with this.

Caster Level Penalty: This is a permanent reduction in your caster level for all spells.

Doesn't seem to be a way around that.
CantripN
07-20-07, 06:35 PM Can you elaborate, CantripN? I think I may see where you are going with this.

Sure. If you were to lose 1 CL on your Wizard side, you'd be able to put all 3 partial casting levels in Wizard, what with the Practiced Spellcaster (Spontaneous class).
JWT
07-20-07, 06:44 PM Sure. If you were to lose 1 CL on your Wizard side, you'd be able to put all 3 partial casting levels in Wizard, what with the Practiced Spellcaster (Spontaneous class).

So then I wonder if there is another way to get a caster level penalty to one class.
CantripN
07-20-07, 06:51 PM So then I wonder if there is another way to get a caster level penalty to one class.

I suppose you could take Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) again. RAW, you can't, but ask your DM. A Wizard spellcaster level is well worth -1 CL and a Feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paradox1995 07-15-07, 11:35 AM	Dan, I need a ruling on something important as it relates to Weapons of Legacy. Table 4-6 lists one of the costs as "Caster Level Penalty -1" and I need to know exactly what that means. I had assumed that it meant that my caster level was lower for things like caster level checks to dispel magic, spell damage which depends on caster level (ie, 1d6 per caster level or 1 round per level ), but that spells known and spell slots available would not be affected since they depend on class level. Is that right, or should my spells known and spell slots be reduced as well? PHB page 181 describes caster level as "the caster's class level for the purpose of casting a particular spell." I'm taking the Weapons of Legacy table to mean that my caster level is now my class level minus 1 for the purpose of casting a particular spell, but I wanted to check with you guys and get your collective opinion first. THANKS!:)
CantripN 07-15-07, 11:58 AM	If it says "Caster Level", then you're correct. The other term being "Spellcaster Level."
dirkformica 07-15-07, 06:25 PM	How might this affect a character when they first gain access to a new spell level? Wouldn't you need, say, a minimum caster level of 9 to cast a 5th level spell? If you only had a caster level of 8 (due to the penalty) would you still be able to cast your newly acquired 5th level spells?
Nom 07-16-07, 02:02 AM	In general, "no".
paradox1995 07-16-07, 03:42 AM	:confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize?
CantripN 07-16-07, 03:47 AM	:confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize? Hard to know. On the one hand, you cannot choose to cast a spell at such a low caster level that it couldn't be cast at normally (Fireball is min. CL 5 for Wizards, CL 6 for Sorcerer, for instance). On the other, you certainly have the spell slots... I'm sure you'll be able to put Metamagicked Spells in there, but regualr spells? I don't know. I'd allow it, but I don't know what the RAW says of this.
Nom 07-16-07, 10:16 PM	:confused: So Im confused... would the penalty only affect things like dispel magic, and spell effects (i.e. spell damage)??? or would it affect that stuff as well as spells you could memorize?Oh, you could memorise normally. The problem comes that you can't cast a spell at below it's minimum caster level. Thus, if you have a -1 caster level penalty at wiz5 and thus CL 4, you can prepare fireball in a level 3 slot but cannot actually cast it.
tarkin 07-17-07, 11:27 AM	But you would be allowed to memorize and cast an extended Melf's Acid Arrow in the 3rd level slot.
Puca 07-17-07, 11:40 AM	Id let you cast the spell. Nom has the RAW, no denying that, but the way I look at it, thats just too big a hit. If you were to get a +1 caster-level, like from an ioun stone or something, it wouldnt allow you to cast spells of a level higher than normal. It just effects variables based on caster-level and makes them harder to dispel. So I just dont think the reverse should be true either. Id let the fifth-level wizard cast Fireball, but it would only do 4d6. Thats only my opinion. Nothing more. You can use Practiced Spellcaster to make up for this penalty, just FYI.
JWT 07-17-07, 11:51 AM	Oh, you could memorise normally. The problem comes that you can't cast a spell at below it's minimum caster level. Thus, if you have a -1 caster level penalty at wiz5 and thus CL 4, you can prepare fireball in a level 3 slot but cannot actually cast it. I hadn't though about this before, but dropping caster level greatly changes the Wild Mage prestige class. 1/3 of her high levels spells would just fizzle! It certainly makes Practiced Spellcaster a must!
paradox1995 07-17-07, 04:35 PM	Id let you cast the spell. Nom has the RAW, no denying that, but the way I look at it, thats just too big a hit. If you were to get a +1 caster-level, like from an ioun stone or something, it wouldnt allow you to cast spells of a level higher than normal. It just effects variables based on caster-level and makes them harder to dispel. So I just dont think the reverse should be true either. Id let the fifth-level wizard cast Fireball, but it would only do 4d6. Thats only my opinion. Nothing more. You can use Practiced Spellcaster to make up for this penalty, just FYI. I think I am going to go with this method... as I agree its just to big a hit for a spellcaster... besides... the wepon of legacy penalty tabke we are using already reduces spell slots. Thanks guys...
gbnogkfs 07-17-07, 05:55 PM	Really, there is no hard rule saying "you cannot cast spells at caster level lower than the class level at which you gain access to that spell's level"
Lafing Cat 07-17-07, 06:03 PM	There is a hard rule that says you cannot choose to cast a spell at a lower caster level than the minimum (generally spell level*2-1). I would say, that since you aren't choosing to reduce your caster level, but are forced to, that rule has no effect in this particular situation. relevant quote You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
gbnogkfs 07-18-07, 08:38 AM	uhm... yeah... I suppose you're right...:cool:
Leilond 07-18-07, 08:48 AM	Everytime you cast a spell you choose the caster level, ALWAYS. Sometimes you can choose only one caster level (a 5th level wizard can cast fireball at 5th caster level, no more, no less) but that doesn't change that you choose a level. The fact that the only level you can choose is an "illegal" choice make no difference, you cannot choose that caster level The rules say that you can prepare a spell using a slot higher than the spell level (or use an higher level slot for a lower level spell if you do not prepare spells like sorcerers). Thus, if you're 5th level wizard but you have "caster level -1" penalty, the only things you can do is "use your 3rd level slot for 2nd level spells, and wait to become 6th level before preparing 3rd level spells" If you are a 6th level sorceror and you have "-1 caster level" you have to use your 3rd level slots to cast 2nd level spells This is my opinion
CantripN 07-18-07, 08:50 AM	I wonder... Is this -1 CL for one class? If it is, it's rather useful for an Ultimate Magus.
JWT 07-20-07, 06:31 PM	I wonder... Is this -1 CL for one class? If it is, it's rather useful for an Ultimate Magus. Can you elaborate, CantripN? I think I may see where you are going with this. Caster Level Penalty: This is a permanent reduction in your caster level for all spells. Doesn't seem to be a way around that.
CantripN 07-20-07, 06:35 PM	Can you elaborate, CantripN? I think I may see where you are going with this. Sure. If you were to lose 1 CL on your Wizard side, you'd be able to put all 3 partial casting levels in Wizard, what with the Practiced Spellcaster (Spontaneous class).
JWT 07-20-07, 06:44 PM	Sure. If you were to lose 1 CL on your Wizard side, you'd be able to put all 3 partial casting levels in Wizard, what with the Practiced Spellcaster (Spontaneous class). So then I wonder if there is another way to get a caster level penalty to one class.
CantripN 07-20-07, 06:51 PM	So then I wonder if there is another way to get a caster level penalty to one class. I suppose you could take Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) again. RAW, you can't, but ask your DM. A Wizard spellcaster level is well worth -1 CL and a Feat.