Caster with low primary attribute (3.0) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster with low primary attribute (3.0) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AeoN2
01-15-04, 08:42 AM I've read around in PHB on what happens to a spellcaster who has a too low primary attribute to casts his highest level spells.

Facts:
-Without 10 + spell level primary attribute a spell caster cannot cast the spell.
-Spellslots of higher level can instead be used to power lower level spells that can be cast.

The question is, could a caster with metamagic feats use higher spell slots to power metamagic? could a 9th level wizard with a 13 int cast an empowered fireball using one of his 5th level slots?

Two things that indicate this is possible:
-Description for wizard mentions 10 + spell's level as the intelligence needed, and in the same paragraph mentions 10 + spell's level + int modifier as the DC (suggesting that it in both cases means the base level)
-Metamagic feats mentions taking a higher spell slot, but nothing about needing higher attribute for it.

I would like to know if there is an official rule on this (3.0 or 3.5)

--
AeoN2
dantedarkstar
01-15-04, 09:32 AM With Int 15 you can cast spells of 5th level or lower.

Empowered Cone of Cold (7ht level slot) is still 5th level spell so you can cast it with no problems.
Same with all other metamagics except Heighten (heighten does change spell level, so you can't cast Heightened Cone of Cold with Int 15).
Seeker95
01-15-04, 09:45 AM The question hinges on whether the level of a spell is prepared "as a higher level spell" or just "in a higher level spell slot". The distinction is subtle.

I can prepare mage hand (a cantrip) in every one of my spell slots, from 0 to 9. It uses up the slot, but is in every way still a 0-level spell.

dantedarkstar has indicated there is a difference between heighten spell and empower spell in how they affect the level of a spell. Can anyone else confirm this? I am at work, and therefore do not have access to my PHB.
KShaver
01-15-04, 11:15 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
The question hinges on whether the level of a spell is prepared "as a higher level spell" or just "in a higher level spell slot". The distinction is subtle.

It is indeed a subtle distinction, but I found this in the SRD:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

While the spell may not technically change in level (for purposes of DC and several other effects), it is still cast as a higher level spell, which would indicate to me you need to be able to cast that level spell.
AeoN2
01-15-04, 01:18 PM Originally posted by KShaver
It is indeed a subtle distinction, but I found this in the SRD:

While the spell may not technically change in level (for purposes of DC and several other effects), it is still cast as a higher level spell, which would indicate to me you need to be able to cast that level spell.

However I found this quote on metamagic:

"If she prepares charm person as a silent spell, for example, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still, however only a 1st-level spell."

I'm still not sure what is the official ruling on the matter though...

--
AeoN2
Xavim
01-15-04, 01:28 PM That'd be a very interesting character concept... heh, its the new sorcerer. Lacking high level magics until later, but being able to cast them a bazillion times a day.
KShaver
01-15-04, 02:07 PM Originally posted by AeoN2
However I found this quote on metamagic:

"If she prepares charm person as a silent spell, for example, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still, however only a 1st-level spell."

This is all covered in the first quote, the spell "operates at its original spell level", even though it is "prepared and cast as a higher-level spell".

This tells me that all effects of the spell are unchanged, aside from the metamagic applied to it. The spell still has the same base level for calculating save DCs, its effect on a globe of invulnerability, and any other level dependent effects.

It is however cast as a higher level spell, meaning any portion of its casting is considered higher level, this includes concentration DCs, and whether or not a particular person can cast it. Basically the spell becomes the level of its spell slot, but with effects that aren't quite up to par.
KShaver
01-15-04, 02:15 PM Hey where is that quote from anyways? I don't see it in the feats section of the SRD, which is pretty much the only part that covers metamagic.
AeoN2
01-15-04, 02:35 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Hey where is that quote from anyways? I don't see it in the feats section of the SRD, which is pretty much the only part that covers metamagic.

It's from 3.0 PHB

And I still am not convinced one way or the other on this... guess it will be GM ruling in any case... and for once I'm not the GM in the campaign where this will matter for me :(

--
AeoN2
mercurial67
01-15-04, 02:53 PM I happened to run across this earlier today in the Forgotten Realms Campaign FAQ. They talk about a character using a spell slot she could not normally cast from to power a metamagic spell. They specifically state only Heighten Spell modifies the spells actual level.

Also, if you read the description of the different metamagic feats, they all state the spell takes up a higher level slot than the spell's actual level. The only exception to this is the heighten spell feat which states: "Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies."

It is the spell level, not the spell slot which determines if a character can cast the spell.
Seeker95
01-15-04, 03:01 PM How I would rule:

If you do not have a 7th level spell slot, you cannot cast a spell "as a 7th level spell". So you cannot metamagic spells higher than your level would normally allow. (So far, no dispute.)

Further, to have a 7th level spell slot, you would have to be able to cast 7th level spells. Access to spells is a combination of level and Intelligence.

I do see and understand how someone else might rule otherwise. But in my campaign, a 13 intelligence wizard is not going to be able to gain access to *more low level spells* as they progress in level. In fact, I would consider treating the capacity to cast spells of a certain level (Int, or Wis, or Cha) a prerequisite for taking a level in a given spellcaster class!

You can't take the level if you can't take the spells.
mercurial67
01-15-04, 03:20 PM Found this in the FAQ dated 06272003. When you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enought to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level.
KShaver
01-15-04, 03:31 PM Originally posted by mercurial67
I happened to run across this earlier today in the Forgotten Realms Campaign FAQ. They talk about a character using a spell slot she could not normally cast from to power a metamagic spell. They specifically state only Heighten Spell modifies the spells actual level.

So I too a look at that FAQ. It did indeed imply that, though it was specifically talking about epic level spells (and 16th level spell slots). I also looked at the main 3.0 FAQ. It has one part where it states (again a specific question about heighten spell):

As pointed out before, when you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enough to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level.

Strangely I couldn't find where it was pointed out before (according to the quote), but it did come up one more time later in the FAQ. So I concede on whether or not it can be done in 3.0. Unfortunately I'm still skeptical about 3.5 because the 3.5 SRD and 3.5 FAQ mention no such thing.
KShaver
01-15-04, 03:33 PM Originally posted by mercurial67
Found this in the FAQ dated 06272003.

Aye, I was busy quoting that, but it is still a 3.0 FAQ.
mercurial67
01-15-04, 03:36 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Unfortunately I'm still skeptical about 3.5 because the 3.5 SRD and 3.5 FAQ mention no such thing. If you look at the description of the feats, they specifically state it takes a higher level spell slot. The only exception is heighten spell which states the effective level of the spell is raised as well. This indicates the spell level remains the same.

Unfortunately in 3.5 they completely left out clarifications from 3.0.
mercurial67
01-15-04, 03:39 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Aye, I was busy quoting that, but it is still a 3.0 FAQ. The original post was for 3.0. As I stated earlier, they have made a nasty habit of omitting all the 3.0 clarifications from 3.5. 3.5 only states it takes a spell slot higher than the spell level. To me this indicates the spell level remains the same. The spell DC remains the same. The concentration checks for the spell remain the same, etc...
AeoN2
01-15-04, 03:51 PM When you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enought to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level.

Wonderful :) that is official enough for me :)

--
AeoN2
KShaver
01-15-04, 03:52 PM Originally posted by mercurial67
Unfortunately in 3.5 they completely left out clarifications from 3.0.

Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5. I can only go by what I see in the SRD and the 3.5 FAQ, which seem to indicate to me otherwise (My resolve is no longer 100% though). If I remember I'll look at my 3.5 core books when I get a chance, but I doubt they mention anything concrete.

Now for my opinion on the matter: The DM should allow it. Not only is it an interesting character idea, but the loss of those higher level spells seems significant enough of a penalty already.
AeoN2
01-15-04, 04:14 PM Originally posted by KShaver
Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5. I can only go by what I see in the SRD and the 3.5 FAQ, which seem to indicate to me otherwise (My resolve is no longer 100% though). If I remember I'll look at my 3.5 core books when I get a chance, but I doubt they mention anything concrete.

Now for my opinion on the matter: The DM should allow it. Not only is it an interesting character idea, but the loss of those higher level spells seems significant enough of a penalty already.

Not so much a character idea as some poor rolls that will end up with me not having 5th level divine spells... but that opens up for using metamagic 1st-4th level divine, and have many misc spells...

--
AeoN2
Hypersmurf
01-15-04, 04:59 PM Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5.

This wasn't one of them, though :)

If the rules in question haven't changed from 3E to 3.5, then the answers in the 3E FAQ are just as applicable.

If the rules in question have changed, then the answers do not apply.

Example: 3E question about Cleave and True Strike. Neither Cleave nor True Strike have changed; the answer is just as applicable.

Example: 3E question about Cleave and Whirlwind Attack. Cleave has not changed, but Whirlwind Attack has; the 3E answer is irrelevant.

-Hyp.
Luminous Crayon
01-15-04, 05:18 PM Originally posted by AeoN2
The question is, could a caster with metamagic feats use higher spell slots to power metamagic? could a 9th level wizard with a 13 int cast an empowered fireball using one of his 5th level slots?
There's a scenerio in the Book of Challenges that describes a bugbear with 5 levels of Wizard and an 11 Int. In the stat block, he's listed with all his spell slots filled with various metamagic-altered versions of Magic Missile.
Krynus Ogrebane
01-16-04, 01:03 AM A 20th-level sorcerer with a 13 charisma can cast a Maximized Silent Stilled Enlarged Fireball without problem.

He could not cast a Heightened Fireball.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AeoN2 01-15-04, 08:42 AM	I've read around in PHB on what happens to a spellcaster who has a too low primary attribute to casts his highest level spells. Facts: -Without 10 + spell level primary attribute a spell caster cannot cast the spell. -Spellslots of higher level can instead be used to power lower level spells that can be cast. The question is, could a caster with metamagic feats use higher spell slots to power metamagic? could a 9th level wizard with a 13 int cast an empowered fireball using one of his 5th level slots? Two things that indicate this is possible: -Description for wizard mentions 10 + spell's level as the intelligence needed, and in the same paragraph mentions 10 + spell's level + int modifier as the DC (suggesting that it in both cases means the base level) -Metamagic feats mentions taking a higher spell slot, but nothing about needing higher attribute for it. I would like to know if there is an official rule on this (3.0 or 3.5) -- AeoN2
dantedarkstar 01-15-04, 09:32 AM	With Int 15 you can cast spells of 5th level or lower. Empowered Cone of Cold (7ht level slot) is still 5th level spell so you can cast it with no problems. Same with all other metamagics except Heighten (heighten does change spell level, so you can't cast Heightened Cone of Cold with Int 15).
Seeker95 01-15-04, 09:45 AM	The question hinges on whether the level of a spell is prepared "as a higher level spell" or just "in a higher level spell slot". The distinction is subtle. I can prepare mage hand (a cantrip) in every one of my spell slots, from 0 to 9. It uses up the slot, but is in every way still a 0-level spell. dantedarkstar has indicated there is a difference between heighten spell and empower spell in how they affect the level of a spell. Can anyone else confirm this? I am at work, and therefore do not have access to my PHB.
KShaver 01-15-04, 11:15 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 The question hinges on whether the level of a spell is prepared "as a higher level spell" or just "in a higher level spell slot". The distinction is subtle. It is indeed a subtle distinction, but I found this in the SRD: Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. While the spell may not technically change in level (for purposes of DC and several other effects), it is still cast as a higher level spell, which would indicate to me you need to be able to cast that level spell.
AeoN2 01-15-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by KShaver It is indeed a subtle distinction, but I found this in the SRD: While the spell may not technically change in level (for purposes of DC and several other effects), it is still cast as a higher level spell, which would indicate to me you need to be able to cast that level spell. However I found this quote on metamagic: "If she prepares charm person as a silent spell, for example, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still, however only a 1st-level spell." I'm still not sure what is the official ruling on the matter though... -- AeoN2
Xavim 01-15-04, 01:28 PM	That'd be a very interesting character concept... heh, its the new sorcerer. Lacking high level magics until later, but being able to cast them a bazillion times a day.
KShaver 01-15-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by AeoN2 However I found this quote on metamagic: "If she prepares charm person as a silent spell, for example, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still, however only a 1st-level spell." This is all covered in the first quote, the spell "operates at its original spell level", even though it is "prepared and cast as a higher-level spell". This tells me that all effects of the spell are unchanged, aside from the metamagic applied to it. The spell still has the same base level for calculating save DCs, its effect on a globe of invulnerability, and any other level dependent effects. It is however cast as a higher level spell, meaning any portion of its casting is considered higher level, this includes concentration DCs, and whether or not a particular person can cast it. Basically the spell becomes the level of its spell slot, but with effects that aren't quite up to par.
KShaver 01-15-04, 02:15 PM	Hey where is that quote from anyways? I don't see it in the feats section of the SRD, which is pretty much the only part that covers metamagic.
AeoN2 01-15-04, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Hey where is that quote from anyways? I don't see it in the feats section of the SRD, which is pretty much the only part that covers metamagic. It's from 3.0 PHB And I still am not convinced one way or the other on this... guess it will be GM ruling in any case... and for once I'm not the GM in the campaign where this will matter for me :( -- AeoN2
mercurial67 01-15-04, 02:53 PM	I happened to run across this earlier today in the Forgotten Realms Campaign FAQ. They talk about a character using a spell slot she could not normally cast from to power a metamagic spell. They specifically state only Heighten Spell modifies the spells actual level. Also, if you read the description of the different metamagic feats, they all state the spell takes up a higher level slot than the spell's actual level. The only exception to this is the heighten spell feat which states: "Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies." It is the spell level, not the spell slot which determines if a character can cast the spell.
Seeker95 01-15-04, 03:01 PM	How I would rule: If you do not have a 7th level spell slot, you cannot cast a spell "as a 7th level spell". So you cannot metamagic spells higher than your level would normally allow. (So far, no dispute.) Further, to have a 7th level spell slot, you would have to be able to cast 7th level spells. Access to spells is a combination of level and Intelligence. I do see and understand how someone else might rule otherwise. But in my campaign, a 13 intelligence wizard is not going to be able to gain access to more low level spells as they progress in level. In fact, I would consider treating the capacity to cast spells of a certain level (Int, or Wis, or Cha) a prerequisite for taking a level in a given spellcaster class! You can't take the level if you can't take the spells.
mercurial67 01-15-04, 03:20 PM	Found this in the FAQ dated 06272003. When you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enought to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level.
KShaver 01-15-04, 03:31 PM	Originally posted by mercurial67 I happened to run across this earlier today in the Forgotten Realms Campaign FAQ. They talk about a character using a spell slot she could not normally cast from to power a metamagic spell. They specifically state only Heighten Spell modifies the spells actual level. So I too a look at that FAQ. It did indeed imply that, though it was specifically talking about epic level spells (and 16th level spell slots). I also looked at the main 3.0 FAQ. It has one part where it states (again a specific question about heighten spell): As pointed out before, when you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enough to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level. Strangely I couldn't find where it was pointed out before (according to the quote), but it did come up one more time later in the FAQ. So I concede on whether or not it can be done in 3.0. Unfortunately I'm still skeptical about 3.5 because the 3.5 SRD and 3.5 FAQ mention no such thing.
KShaver 01-15-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by mercurial67 Found this in the FAQ dated 06272003. Aye, I was busy quoting that, but it is still a 3.0 FAQ.
mercurial67 01-15-04, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Unfortunately I'm still skeptical about 3.5 because the 3.5 SRD and 3.5 FAQ mention no such thing. If you look at the description of the feats, they specifically state it takes a higher level spell slot. The only exception is heighten spell which states the effective level of the spell is raised as well. This indicates the spell level remains the same. Unfortunately in 3.5 they completely left out clarifications from 3.0.
mercurial67 01-15-04, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Aye, I was busy quoting that, but it is still a 3.0 FAQ. The original post was for 3.0. As I stated earlier, they have made a nasty habit of omitting all the 3.0 clarifications from 3.5. 3.5 only states it takes a spell slot higher than the spell level. To me this indicates the spell level remains the same. The spell DC remains the same. The concentration checks for the spell remain the same, etc...
AeoN2 01-15-04, 03:51 PM	When you use a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell, you normally need an ability score only high enought to cast the spell at its base (unmodified by metamagic) level. Wonderful :) that is official enough for me :) -- AeoN2
KShaver 01-15-04, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by mercurial67 Unfortunately in 3.5 they completely left out clarifications from 3.0. Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5. I can only go by what I see in the SRD and the 3.5 FAQ, which seem to indicate to me otherwise (My resolve is no longer 100% though). If I remember I'll look at my 3.5 core books when I get a chance, but I doubt they mention anything concrete. Now for my opinion on the matter: The DM should allow it. Not only is it an interesting character idea, but the loss of those higher level spells seems significant enough of a penalty already.
AeoN2 01-15-04, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5. I can only go by what I see in the SRD and the 3.5 FAQ, which seem to indicate to me otherwise (My resolve is no longer 100% though). If I remember I'll look at my 3.5 core books when I get a chance, but I doubt they mention anything concrete. Now for my opinion on the matter: The DM should allow it. Not only is it an interesting character idea, but the loss of those higher level spells seems significant enough of a penalty already. Not so much a character idea as some poor rolls that will end up with me not having 5th level divine spells... but that opens up for using metamagic 1st-4th level divine, and have many misc spells... -- AeoN2
Hypersmurf 01-15-04, 04:59 PM	Yes, but there are many very subtle items which changed from 3.0 to 3.5. This wasn't one of them, though :) If the rules in question haven't changed from 3E to 3.5, then the answers in the 3E FAQ are just as applicable. If the rules in question have changed, then the answers do not apply. Example: 3E question about Cleave and True Strike. Neither Cleave nor True Strike have changed; the answer is just as applicable. Example: 3E question about Cleave and Whirlwind Attack. Cleave has not changed, but Whirlwind Attack has; the 3E answer is irrelevant. -Hyp.
Luminous Crayon 01-15-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by AeoN2 The question is, could a caster with metamagic feats use higher spell slots to power metamagic? could a 9th level wizard with a 13 int cast an empowered fireball using one of his 5th level slots? There's a scenerio in the Book of Challenges that describes a bugbear with 5 levels of Wizard and an 11 Int. In the stat block, he's listed with all his spell slots filled with various metamagic-altered versions of Magic Missile.
Krynus Ogrebane 01-16-04, 01:03 AM	A 20th-level sorcerer with a 13 charisma can cast a Maximized Silent Stilled Enlarged Fireball without problem. He could not cast a Heightened Fireball.