Casting blindness on a hydra? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting blindness on a hydra? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jamie_noone
11-15-07, 07:49 PM Am I correct in my interpretation that it would affect all the hydra's heads if the hydra fails its will save?

Just seems too easy to avoid the encounter, as long as the PCs can keep far enough away to avoid being pinpointed by scent.

Thanks,
jamie
tyrecian
11-15-07, 07:57 PM I would rule that way, very interesting idea :D i like it.
Zathress
11-15-07, 08:02 PM Yes you are correct the spell blindness/deafness would effect all the hydras heads. If the spell said it covered there eyes in tar then you could say it would need to be cast on each head. But the spell simple targets the creature and blinds them no matter how many heads or eyes they have.

Keep in mind its a fort save which is a Hydra's best save. The blindness can work on most any monster with out means of seeing with out sight.

The hydra can still follow them via scent and simply track them. Even if they are beyond pin pointing range.

Also Hydras have the feat blind-fight which is of great help of the party moves into to melee to try and kill the hydra quickly.

Remember the blindness problem would be exactly the same if you were dealing with a hill giant instead of a hydra.
PhaedrusXY
11-15-07, 08:26 PM Why is this so "cheap" vs. a hydra specifically? It would be a good tactic against alot of things, and in fact hydras are alot better off than some other creatures would be (like the previously mentioned hill giant). I mean... that's what the spell does, makes things Blind... Imagine that.
Silversheen197
11-16-07, 09:44 AM Also remember that blindness/deafness has a range of touch. The caster would need to provoke an awful lot of attacks of opportunity (a bunch going in, a bunch going out) just to get it cast, and it wouldn't really be all that helpful, what with all the things other people have mentioned.
Seeker95
11-16-07, 11:11 AM The caster would need to provoke an awful lot of attacks of opportunity (a bunch going in, a bunch going out) just to get it castHow so? Attacks of opportunity rules do not allow you to make more than one for the same round. The number of heads does not change this. The heads are not treated as separate creatures.

And although a hydra has combat reflexes, its Dex of 12 makes this less effective. So it can make two attacks of opportunity in a round (1 + Dex modifier). It can still only make one attack of opportunity per provocation.
Silversheen197
11-16-07, 11:17 AM Let's not get into this. This argument is rehashed all the time, and I'm not arguing it cause I've seen where it goes.

Suffice it to say I used to agree with your position, but now I do not.
rimble
11-16-07, 12:03 PM Am I correct in my interpretation that it would affect all the hydra's heads if the hydra fails its will save?

Just seems too easy to avoid the encounter, as long as the PCs can keep far enough away to avoid being pinpointed by scent.

Blindness is one of the best statuses to impart on enemies in my opinion...I wish there were better rules for 'disorientation' while blinded...but anyways, I'll be damned if I'm running up to touch a Hydra...use Spectral Hand, or my favorite: Glitterdust is my goto Blindness spell...it's ranged! It's a Will save! It's an Area of Effect! It has no Spell Resistance!

Might need to cast two to get all the heads tho...discuss...
Zathress
11-16-07, 12:38 PM How so? Attacks of opportunity rules do not allow you to make more than one for the same round. The number of heads does not change this. The heads are not treated as separate creatures.

And although a hydra has combat reflexes, its Dex of 12 makes this less effective. So it can make two attacks of opportunity in a round (1 + Dex modifier). It can still only make one attack of opportunity per provocation.

Hmm Silver, Judging about WHAT he said exactly he clearly didn't read the hydra monster entry clear enough. I know there are a lot of interpretations for the line. But he appears to think a Hydra makes attacks of opportunity just like any other creature. No different then say a dragon with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes.
"A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity"

There are many ways to interpret this. But a hydra makes attacks of opportunity normally for a creature with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes is not one of them.
rimble
11-16-07, 12:58 PM There are many ways to interpret this. But a hydra makes attacks of opportunity normally for a creature with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes is not one of them.

Well, it looks to me like the Hydra gets two AoO's a round, and each AoO consists of a bite from each head.

It comes down to the monster description, here's the first part of what the SRD explains the 'Attack' entry on a monster description means:

Attack

This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well.

And here's what a Five-Headed Hydra entry looks like:

Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3)

I think Hydras are pretty unique in this regard, Ettins don't get this benefit:

Attack: Morningstar +12 melee (2d6+6) or javelin +5 ranged (1d8+6)

It's just one of the things that makes Hydra's horrible. Two AoO's a round, each consisting of a bite from each head. Ok, maybe just one AoO a round consisting of a bite from each head (it's like Hydra's got their own special Combat Reflexes Feat).

I wouldn't have any problem if someone wanted instead to have the Hydra get a number of AoO's equal to its number of heads + 1 for Combat Reflexes, though I think that'd weaken it considerably.

Just letting it get two AoO's that are one bite each is painfully castrating this iconic creature.
Zathress
11-16-07, 01:16 PM Just letting it get two AoO's that are one bite each is painfully castrating this iconic creature.
Not to mention it ignores said mentioned line
"A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity"

Your example is well horrible though. An unarmed Xill makes 4 claw attacks all at +5 melee.

But at any rate the hydra is supposed to be TOUGH with out improved sunder.

Hydras can also attack with all there heads even after they move or charge.
rimble
11-16-07, 01:22 PM I'm taking my somewhat off-topic Hydra AoO talk over here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14351320#post14351320
Zathress
11-16-07, 01:24 PM I'm taking my somewhat off-topic Hydra AoO talk over here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14351320#post14351320

Good idea
Legdiwena
11-16-07, 03:07 PM The wizard could always use Reach Spell on Blindness and no AoO.
icuall
11-16-07, 05:07 PM I think I would allow each head a Save vs Blindness. It seems odd that all the heads would all be blind because of one failed save.

Before you all start jumping on me, I know monster description does not say each head has a save. I think WoTC didn't think of this scenario. I am pretty certain when they created Blind spell, it was designed for one headed species interaction which is why there is no mention of what to do for multiple heads. By omission each head having a save is not allowed. But "why not?" is what I say! Anyway, that is what I would do.

My $.02
Seeker95
11-16-07, 05:38 PM I think I would allow each head a Save vs Blindness. It seems odd that all the heads would all be blind because of one failed save.And for a beholder?
PhaedrusXY
11-16-07, 05:45 PM And for a beholder?Or a xorn, or any number of other weird monsters that don't even have heads, and have more than 2 eyes?

The target is "one creature" not "one head" or "two eyes".
1 ton ghost
11-17-07, 01:25 PM ah, good insight. technically, the hydra exists as 1 entity, not several tethered to one body despite x-brain redundancy. that should give you plenty of clout for the spell. nj that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jamie_noone 11-15-07, 07:49 PM	Am I correct in my interpretation that it would affect all the hydra's heads if the hydra fails its will save? Just seems too easy to avoid the encounter, as long as the PCs can keep far enough away to avoid being pinpointed by scent. Thanks, jamie
tyrecian 11-15-07, 07:57 PM	I would rule that way, very interesting idea :D i like it.
Zathress 11-15-07, 08:02 PM	Yes you are correct the spell blindness/deafness would effect all the hydras heads. If the spell said it covered there eyes in tar then you could say it would need to be cast on each head. But the spell simple targets the creature and blinds them no matter how many heads or eyes they have. Keep in mind its a fort save which is a Hydra's best save. The blindness can work on most any monster with out means of seeing with out sight. The hydra can still follow them via scent and simply track them. Even if they are beyond pin pointing range. Also Hydras have the feat blind-fight which is of great help of the party moves into to melee to try and kill the hydra quickly. Remember the blindness problem would be exactly the same if you were dealing with a hill giant instead of a hydra.
PhaedrusXY 11-15-07, 08:26 PM	Why is this so "cheap" vs. a hydra specifically? It would be a good tactic against alot of things, and in fact hydras are alot better off than some other creatures would be (like the previously mentioned hill giant). I mean... that's what the spell does, makes things Blind... Imagine that.
Silversheen197 11-16-07, 09:44 AM	Also remember that blindness/deafness has a range of touch. The caster would need to provoke an awful lot of attacks of opportunity (a bunch going in, a bunch going out) just to get it cast, and it wouldn't really be all that helpful, what with all the things other people have mentioned.
Seeker95 11-16-07, 11:11 AM	The caster would need to provoke an awful lot of attacks of opportunity (a bunch going in, a bunch going out) just to get it castHow so? Attacks of opportunity rules do not allow you to make more than one for the same round. The number of heads does not change this. The heads are not treated as separate creatures. And although a hydra has combat reflexes, its Dex of 12 makes this less effective. So it can make two attacks of opportunity in a round (1 + Dex modifier). It can still only make one attack of opportunity per provocation.
Silversheen197 11-16-07, 11:17 AM	Let's not get into this. This argument is rehashed all the time, and I'm not arguing it cause I've seen where it goes. Suffice it to say I used to agree with your position, but now I do not.
rimble 11-16-07, 12:03 PM	Am I correct in my interpretation that it would affect all the hydra's heads if the hydra fails its will save? Just seems too easy to avoid the encounter, as long as the PCs can keep far enough away to avoid being pinpointed by scent. Blindness is one of the best statuses to impart on enemies in my opinion...I wish there were better rules for 'disorientation' while blinded...but anyways, I'll be damned if I'm running up to touch a Hydra...use Spectral Hand, or my favorite: Glitterdust is my goto Blindness spell...it's ranged! It's a Will save! It's an Area of Effect! It has no Spell Resistance! Might need to cast two to get all the heads tho...discuss...
Zathress 11-16-07, 12:38 PM	How so? Attacks of opportunity rules do not allow you to make more than one for the same round. The number of heads does not change this. The heads are not treated as separate creatures. And although a hydra has combat reflexes, its Dex of 12 makes this less effective. So it can make two attacks of opportunity in a round (1 + Dex modifier). It can still only make one attack of opportunity per provocation. Hmm Silver, Judging about WHAT he said exactly he clearly didn't read the hydra monster entry clear enough. I know there are a lot of interpretations for the line. But he appears to think a Hydra makes attacks of opportunity just like any other creature. No different then say a dragon with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes. "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" There are many ways to interpret this. But a hydra makes attacks of opportunity normally for a creature with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes is not one of them.
rimble 11-16-07, 12:58 PM	There are many ways to interpret this. But a hydra makes attacks of opportunity normally for a creature with a dex of 12 and combat reflexes is not one of them. Well, it looks to me like the Hydra gets two AoO's a round, and each AoO consists of a bite from each head. It comes down to the monster description, here's the first part of what the SRD explains the 'Attack' entry on a monster description means: Attack This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. And here's what a Five-Headed Hydra entry looks like: Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) I think Hydras are pretty unique in this regard, Ettins don't get this benefit: Attack: Morningstar +12 melee (2d6+6) or javelin +5 ranged (1d8+6) It's just one of the things that makes Hydra's horrible. Two AoO's a round, each consisting of a bite from each head. Ok, maybe just one AoO a round consisting of a bite from each head (it's like Hydra's got their own special Combat Reflexes Feat). I wouldn't have any problem if someone wanted instead to have the Hydra get a number of AoO's equal to its number of heads + 1 for Combat Reflexes, though I think that'd weaken it considerably. Just letting it get two AoO's that are one bite each is painfully castrating this iconic creature.
Zathress 11-16-07, 01:16 PM	Just letting it get two AoO's that are one bite each is painfully castrating this iconic creature. Not to mention it ignores said mentioned line "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" Your example is well horrible though. An unarmed Xill makes 4 claw attacks all at +5 melee. But at any rate the hydra is supposed to be TOUGH with out improved sunder. Hydras can also attack with all there heads even after they move or charge.
rimble 11-16-07, 01:22 PM	I'm taking my somewhat off-topic Hydra AoO talk over here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14351320#post14351320
Zathress 11-16-07, 01:24 PM	I'm taking my somewhat off-topic Hydra AoO talk over here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14351320#post14351320 Good idea
Legdiwena 11-16-07, 03:07 PM	The wizard could always use Reach Spell on Blindness and no AoO.
icuall 11-16-07, 05:07 PM	I think I would allow each head a Save vs Blindness. It seems odd that all the heads would all be blind because of one failed save. Before you all start jumping on me, I know monster description does not say each head has a save. I think WoTC didn't think of this scenario. I am pretty certain when they created Blind spell, it was designed for one headed species interaction which is why there is no mention of what to do for multiple heads. By omission each head having a save is not allowed. But "why not?" is what I say! Anyway, that is what I would do. My $.02
Seeker95 11-16-07, 05:38 PM	I think I would allow each head a Save vs Blindness. It seems odd that all the heads would all be blind because of one failed save.And for a beholder?
PhaedrusXY 11-16-07, 05:45 PM	And for a beholder?Or a xorn, or any number of other weird monsters that don't even have heads, and have more than 2 eyes? The target is "one creature" not "one head" or "two eyes".
1 ton ghost 11-17-07, 01:25 PM	ah, good insight. technically, the hydra exists as 1 entity, not several tethered to one body despite x-brain redundancy. that should give you plenty of clout for the spell. nj that.