Casting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vergence
03-10-06, 02:57 PM Ok, I've been DMing/playing D&D for over 10 years and usually I have very little problem understanding the intent of the rules enough to 'fudge' my way through any bumps that arise in a game. This question has me searching the book and not finding anything to indicate which way to apply this rule.

Casting Defensively: As part of casting a spell you make a Concentration check DC 15 + spell lvl and if you succeed, you don't provoke, if you fail you flub the spell.

Fighting Defensively: Take a -4 to hit, +2 to AC.

Can you 'combine' these? Can you cast a spell, with a Concentration check, take the -4 penalty on any to hit rolls, and the +2 AC? If so, why wouldn't you (especially if you casting say, fireball). If not, why can't a wizard who is 'casting defensively' (and is forced to make a check) do as much to protect himself as a fighter can without a check?
Vedic Cold
03-10-06, 03:12 PM The rules state that you can Fight Defensively as a Standard Action while attacking. Attacking is a specific standard action described in the rules as striking with a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, or an unarmed strike. Since Cast a Spell and Attack are two specific and seperate Standard Actions, doing one precludes doing the other. You can only Fight Defensively while taking an Attack action, not while casting a spell, so the two actions can't be combined.
Puca
03-10-06, 03:20 PM Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action. With a spell that doesnt involve an attack, like say Charm Person, there is no attack, so you couldnt "fight" at all, let alone defensively.

You could read it so that, if you were making an attack as part of the casting, such as with Shocking Grasp, then you are both attacking and casting a spell.

But I think that, at least in the spirit of the rule, casting a spell wouldnt count though. It is a whole different type of action.
kjenks
03-10-06, 03:29 PM You can do both if you're delivering a Chill Touch spell.
dvlsadvct
03-10-06, 03:51 PM Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a Ā–4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

Hmm. Interesting.

However fighting defensively is listed as a standard action in substitution of the attack option (being ranged, melee or unarmed). Casting a spell is a seperate standard action (you may still be attacking while casting a spell but nonetheless you are still casting a spell as a standard action). Therefore you wouldnt be able to combine the two.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
03-10-06, 03:52 PM You can do both if you're delivering a Chill Touch spell.

Not on a touch attack made in the same round the spell is cast.
But you can do it on attacks made in subsequent rounds with Chill Touch.

You can also do it if you chose to hold the charge on other touch spell.
kjenks
03-10-06, 03:57 PM Not on a touch attack made in the same round the spell is cast.

Why not? Be specific, please. Is it because Fighting Defensively is a standard action?
Lord Lorac Silvanos
03-10-06, 04:19 PM Why not? Be specific, please. Is it because Fighting Defensively is a standard action?

Yes, Fighting Defensively is a standard action and so is casting Chill Touch.
Vedic Cold
03-10-06, 07:05 PM Lorac is right on the Chill Touch issue. On the round it's cast, the touch attack is just part of the casting, and you can't fight defensively while casting the spell. On subsequent turns, though, you can do it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vergence 03-10-06, 02:57 PM	Ok, I've been DMing/playing D&D for over 10 years and usually I have very little problem understanding the intent of the rules enough to 'fudge' my way through any bumps that arise in a game. This question has me searching the book and not finding anything to indicate which way to apply this rule. Casting Defensively: As part of casting a spell you make a Concentration check DC 15 + spell lvl and if you succeed, you don't provoke, if you fail you flub the spell. Fighting Defensively: Take a -4 to hit, +2 to AC. Can you 'combine' these? Can you cast a spell, with a Concentration check, take the -4 penalty on any to hit rolls, and the +2 AC? If so, why wouldn't you (especially if you casting say, fireball). If not, why can't a wizard who is 'casting defensively' (and is forced to make a check) do as much to protect himself as a fighter can without a check?
Vedic Cold 03-10-06, 03:12 PM	The rules state that you can Fight Defensively as a Standard Action while attacking. Attacking is a specific standard action described in the rules as striking with a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, or an unarmed strike. Since Cast a Spell and Attack are two specific and seperate Standard Actions, doing one precludes doing the other. You can only Fight Defensively while taking an Attack action, not while casting a spell, so the two actions can't be combined.
Puca 03-10-06, 03:20 PM	Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. See also: Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action. With a spell that doesnt involve an attack, like say Charm Person, there is no attack, so you couldnt "fight" at all, let alone defensively. You could read it so that, if you were making an attack as part of the casting, such as with Shocking Grasp, then you are both attacking and casting a spell. But I think that, at least in the spirit of the rule, casting a spell wouldnt count though. It is a whole different type of action.
kjenks 03-10-06, 03:29 PM	You can do both if you're delivering a Chill Touch spell.
dvlsadvct 03-10-06, 03:51 PM	Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone. Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a Ā–4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. Hmm. Interesting. However fighting defensively is listed as a standard action in substitution of the attack option (being ranged, melee or unarmed). Casting a spell is a seperate standard action (you may still be attacking while casting a spell but nonetheless you are still casting a spell as a standard action). Therefore you wouldnt be able to combine the two.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 03-10-06, 03:52 PM	You can do both if you're delivering a Chill Touch spell. Not on a touch attack made in the same round the spell is cast. But you can do it on attacks made in subsequent rounds with Chill Touch. You can also do it if you chose to hold the charge on other touch spell.
kjenks 03-10-06, 03:57 PM	Not on a touch attack made in the same round the spell is cast. Why not? Be specific, please. Is it because Fighting Defensively is a standard action?
Lord Lorac Silvanos 03-10-06, 04:19 PM	Why not? Be specific, please. Is it because Fighting Defensively is a standard action? Yes, Fighting Defensively is a standard action and so is casting Chill Touch.
Vedic Cold 03-10-06, 07:05 PM	Lorac is right on the Chill Touch issue. On the round it's cast, the touch attack is just part of the casting, and you can't fight defensively while casting the spell. On subsequent turns, though, you can do it.