Casting higher level scrolls Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting higher level scrolls Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pentar
09-05-04, 07:29 PM Heya,

As I had a discussion to confirm the rules of how spellcasters can cast higher level spells from scrolls than they would normally have access to, I came across another idea that seemed to work along the same lines, but I can't find rules for in the core books. Perhaps you can all help me out.

As I understand it, one can apply metamagic feats to scroll spells on creation. So if a caster possesses the metamagic feat Quicken, one can quicken a scroll spell and allow the user to cast the spell as their free-quickened spell action for the round. Of course, you must possess (or somehow get the metamagic feat) to create a scroll with it (i.e. metamagic rods don't work).

Given that, the scroll spell is cast at a higher level (+4 spell slots). So, my question is this: If a level 1 Wizard got their hands on a scroll with a Quickened Magic Missile CL 9, then they would need to make a caster level check DC 10 in order ot cast the spell, right?

They don't need to have the quickened feat (since the metamagic is already applied), and even though the spell itself is a 1st level spell, it is cast at a higher CL and spell slot, thus they need to make the CL check in order to use it.

Now, assuming my above is correct - how does this work for higher level spells? Does this above work if I try to create a Quickened 8th-level spell? Would a caster even be able to create a scroll like that? Technically, that would mean 12th-level spell. I have a 18th level spellcaster - since I can't technically cast 12th-level spells, can I create a scroll for one? From the core rules alone, 12th-level spells do not exist, so does that mean the Quickened feat simply cannot be used?

However, if I found a scroll of a Quickened 8th-level spell and assuming it was CL 23, then I could cast the spell from the scroll with a caster level check DC 24.

Does this make any sense?
Seeker95
09-05-04, 08:21 PM You cannot cast a quickened spell from a scroll any faster than from a scroll of the regular version of the spell. Activating a scroll is a standard action, and you can't do it any faster just because the spell on the scroll is quickened.

However, replacing "quickened" with "maximized" in each of your examples...

1. You do not need to have the metamagic feat to use a metamagic-affected spell from a scroll.

2. Scroll use DC is determined by the reciter's caster level and the scroll's caster level.

3. For all but heightened spells, the level of the spell does not change. The aforementioned magic missile scroll is a 1st level spell, regardless of any metamagic (other than heighten spell) applied to it. The spell level of a magic missile scroll and a maximized magic missile scroll are the same.

4. The Caster Level for the spell is set by the scriber. The caster level of the scroll will affect the reader's minimum ability score necessary to recite the scroll, and the chance for a mishap.

5. If the reader's caster level is lower than the scroll's caster level, there is a chance for a mishap. Roll DC (scroll caster level +1) to cast successfully. If failed, roll Wisdom check against DC 5 to avoid mishap.

So, for your questions...
You cannot apply metamagic to a spell that would push it into a spell slot you do not have. Simply put, if you can't prepare the spell, you can't scribe it. So there are no maximized 8th level spells (or 9th or 7th either!)

This negates the conditions necessary for your follow-up questions.

(Good line of questioning, by the way).
Pentar
09-05-04, 09:45 PM Ahh, ok, thanks Seeker, as usual. :)

I figured you could not prepare a scroll for a spell you can't prepare (good way to put it, very easily understandable).

But it is possible to cast a spell at the new spell level. So a level 1 Mage with a Maximized Magic Missile could cast it with a caster level level check.

Now, I don't have the Epic book with me, but do 12th-level spells exist? Can you (eventually) create a Maximized 7th-level spell?

Thanks in advance :)
Snicker-Snack
09-05-04, 10:55 PM Now, I don't have the Epic book with me, but do 12th-level spells exist? Can you (eventually) create a Maximized 7th-level spell?

12th level spells don't actually exist (epic spells exist, though), but you can have 12th level slots (and higher) to use metamagic on lower level spells :).
Hypersmurf
09-05-04, 11:13 PM Activating a scroll is a standard action, and you can't do it any faster just because the spell on the scroll is quickened.

"However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item (such as a scroll, pair of boots, etc), unless the item description states otherwise."

The casting time of a Quickened Magic Missile is a free action.

Therefore, a free action is the time required to activate Quickened Magic Missile from an item (such as a scroll), unless the item description states otherwise.

The item description (scroll) doesn't.

-Hyp.
Drachasor
09-06-04, 01:45 AM 12th level spells don't actually exist (epic spells exist, though), but you can have 12th level slots (and higher) to use metamagic on lower level spells :).

And you can also make scrolls to hold spells that use a 10th or higher level slot with Scribe Epic Scroll.

-Drachasor
Seeker95
09-06-04, 08:59 AM The conditions for slots higher than 9th level require Epic level play.
That collection of rules is an entirely different game. If you're playing epic, practically none of the balance of pre-Epic matters.

I disagree* with Hyp on a quickened scroll. It might take more time to cast a spell from a scroll (if the spell has a longer casting time) but it will not take less time.

*My disagreement is based on my opinion -- an intepretation of the activation passage for scrolls found on page 238 of the 3.5 DMG and the list of standard actions (with no asterisk or exception listed) in the PHB. I freely concede this is an opinion, and in no way attempt to provide it as a Rules As Written statement of fact. Statements contrary to this opinion are also opinions, and I will not in any way charge said contrary opinions as being wrong.
GoodTeletubby
09-06-04, 01:46 PM I disagree* with Hyp on a quickened scroll. It might take more time to cast a spell from a scroll (if the spell has a longer casting time) but it will not take less time.

*My disagreement is based on my opinion -- an intepretation of the activation passage for scrolls found on page 238 of the 3.5 DMG and the list of standard actions (with no asterisk or exception listed) in the PHB. I freely concede this is an opinion, and in no way attempt to provide it as a Rules As Written statement of fact. Statements contrary to this opinion are also opinions, and I will not in any way charge said contrary opinions as being wrong.

Seeker's right, scrolls are spell completion items, which require a standard action to activate

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

the item description for scrolls doesn't state otherwise, but the description of the activation method does
Hypersmurf
09-06-04, 04:55 PM the item description for scrolls doesn't state otherwise, but the description of the activation method does

Yup. Which is not the 'item description'.

Items do, indeed, generally take a standard action to activate. But the 'However' provides an exception (and gives scrolls as the first example!) when it is a spell effect being duplicated. In this case, the activation time is the casting time of the spell, unless the item description states otherwise.

And as you agree, the item description doesn't.

-Hyp.
Seeker95
09-06-04, 07:46 PM Table 8-2 on page 141 of the 3.5 PHB indicates that it is a standard action to read a scroll.

In my game, I rule that activating a scroll with a quickened spell cannot take less time than it takes to read the scroll. As none on this board play in my game, I admit that anyone reading this post is free to rule that it is possible to activate a quickened scroll faster than you can read a scroll.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pentar 09-05-04, 07:29 PM	Heya, As I had a discussion to confirm the rules of how spellcasters can cast higher level spells from scrolls than they would normally have access to, I came across another idea that seemed to work along the same lines, but I can't find rules for in the core books. Perhaps you can all help me out. As I understand it, one can apply metamagic feats to scroll spells on creation. So if a caster possesses the metamagic feat Quicken, one can quicken a scroll spell and allow the user to cast the spell as their free-quickened spell action for the round. Of course, you must possess (or somehow get the metamagic feat) to create a scroll with it (i.e. metamagic rods don't work). Given that, the scroll spell is cast at a higher level (+4 spell slots). So, my question is this: If a level 1 Wizard got their hands on a scroll with a Quickened Magic Missile CL 9, then they would need to make a caster level check DC 10 in order ot cast the spell, right? They don't need to have the quickened feat (since the metamagic is already applied), and even though the spell itself is a 1st level spell, it is cast at a higher CL and spell slot, thus they need to make the CL check in order to use it. Now, assuming my above is correct - how does this work for higher level spells? Does this above work if I try to create a Quickened 8th-level spell? Would a caster even be able to create a scroll like that? Technically, that would mean 12th-level spell. I have a 18th level spellcaster - since I can't technically cast 12th-level spells, can I create a scroll for one? From the core rules alone, 12th-level spells do not exist, so does that mean the Quickened feat simply cannot be used? However, if I found a scroll of a Quickened 8th-level spell and assuming it was CL 23, then I could cast the spell from the scroll with a caster level check DC 24. Does this make any sense?
Seeker95 09-05-04, 08:21 PM	You cannot cast a quickened spell from a scroll any faster than from a scroll of the regular version of the spell. Activating a scroll is a standard action, and you can't do it any faster just because the spell on the scroll is quickened. However, replacing "quickened" with "maximized" in each of your examples... 1. You do not need to have the metamagic feat to use a metamagic-affected spell from a scroll. 2. Scroll use DC is determined by the reciter's caster level and the scroll's caster level. 3. For all but heightened spells, the level of the spell does not change. The aforementioned magic missile scroll is a 1st level spell, regardless of any metamagic (other than heighten spell) applied to it. The spell level of a magic missile scroll and a maximized magic missile scroll are the same. 4. The Caster Level for the spell is set by the scriber. The caster level of the scroll will affect the reader's minimum ability score necessary to recite the scroll, and the chance for a mishap. 5. If the reader's caster level is lower than the scroll's caster level, there is a chance for a mishap. Roll DC (scroll caster level +1) to cast successfully. If failed, roll Wisdom check against DC 5 to avoid mishap. So, for your questions... You cannot apply metamagic to a spell that would push it into a spell slot you do not have. Simply put, if you can't prepare the spell, you can't scribe it. So there are no maximized 8th level spells (or 9th or 7th either!) This negates the conditions necessary for your follow-up questions. (Good line of questioning, by the way).
Pentar 09-05-04, 09:45 PM	Ahh, ok, thanks Seeker, as usual. :) I figured you could not prepare a scroll for a spell you can't prepare (good way to put it, very easily understandable). But it is possible to cast a spell at the new spell level. So a level 1 Mage with a Maximized Magic Missile could cast it with a caster level level check. Now, I don't have the Epic book with me, but do 12th-level spells exist? Can you (eventually) create a Maximized 7th-level spell? Thanks in advance :)
Snicker-Snack 09-05-04, 10:55 PM	Now, I don't have the Epic book with me, but do 12th-level spells exist? Can you (eventually) create a Maximized 7th-level spell? 12th level spells don't actually exist (epic spells exist, though), but you can have 12th level slots (and higher) to use metamagic on lower level spells :).
Hypersmurf 09-05-04, 11:13 PM	Activating a scroll is a standard action, and you can't do it any faster just because the spell on the scroll is quickened. "However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item (such as a scroll, pair of boots, etc), unless the item description states otherwise." The casting time of a Quickened Magic Missile is a free action. Therefore, a free action is the time required to activate Quickened Magic Missile from an item (such as a scroll), unless the item description states otherwise. The item description (scroll) doesn't. -Hyp.
Drachasor 09-06-04, 01:45 AM	12th level spells don't actually exist (epic spells exist, though), but you can have 12th level slots (and higher) to use metamagic on lower level spells :). And you can also make scrolls to hold spells that use a 10th or higher level slot with Scribe Epic Scroll. -Drachasor
Seeker95 09-06-04, 08:59 AM	The conditions for slots higher than 9th level require Epic level play. That collection of rules is an entirely different game. If you're playing epic, practically none of the balance of pre-Epic matters. I disagree* with Hyp on a quickened scroll. It might take more time to cast a spell from a scroll (if the spell has a longer casting time) but it will not take less time. *My disagreement is based on my opinion -- an intepretation of the activation passage for scrolls found on page 238 of the 3.5 DMG and the list of standard actions (with no asterisk or exception listed) in the PHB. I freely concede this is an opinion, and in no way attempt to provide it as a Rules As Written statement of fact. Statements contrary to this opinion are also opinions, and I will not in any way charge said contrary opinions as being wrong.
GoodTeletubby 09-06-04, 01:46 PM	I disagree* with Hyp on a quickened scroll. It might take more time to cast a spell from a scroll (if the spell has a longer casting time) but it will not take less time. *My disagreement is based on my opinion -- an intepretation of the activation passage for scrolls found on page 238 of the 3.5 DMG and the list of standard actions (with no asterisk or exception listed) in the PHB. I freely concede this is an opinion, and in no way attempt to provide it as a Rules As Written statement of fact. Statements contrary to this opinion are also opinions, and I will not in any way charge said contrary opinions as being wrong. Seeker's right, scrolls are spell completion items, which require a standard action to activate Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. the item description for scrolls doesn't state otherwise, but the description of the activation method does
Hypersmurf 09-06-04, 04:55 PM	the item description for scrolls doesn't state otherwise, but the description of the activation method does Yup. Which is not the 'item description'. Items do, indeed, generally take a standard action to activate. But the 'However' provides an exception (and gives scrolls as the first example!) when it is a spell effect being duplicated. In this case, the activation time is the casting time of the spell, unless the item description states otherwise. And as you agree, the item description doesn't. -Hyp.
Seeker95 09-06-04, 07:46 PM	Table 8-2 on page 141 of the 3.5 PHB indicates that it is a standard action to read a scroll. In my game, I rule that activating a scroll with a quickened spell cannot take less time than it takes to read the scroll. As none on this board play in my game, I admit that anyone reading this post is free to rule that it is possible to activate a quickened scroll faster than you can read a scroll.