Casting on other Planes (non prime) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting on other Planes (non prime) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bolithio
08-07-07, 01:16 AM In most spell descriptions that deal with other planes in some way, there usually is a statement that says "on your home plane" or "from your/creatures home plane". Im assuming that this means the plane you are currently on - as opposed to the plane from which you originated from.

I was thinking specifically of spells like dismissal or banishment, when used on non-prime planes. For instance if a wizard cast Banishment on an efreeti encountered in a lower plane - would the spell function sending the efreeti to his native plane of fire?

How about normal Summon spells. Do these function in the other planes? Obviously you would not be able to summon a creature from the plane you were on, but im assuming you could summon other creatures.

I was also wondering how these spells would effect creatures - perhaps PCs - from prime worlds. Would a Banishment send a human back to the material plane? Would it be possible to summon a creature from the material plane if on a different plane?

Just wanted to know how this works before my wizard leaves the Prime worlds behind....;)
Sarlax
08-07-07, 01:30 AM In most spell descriptions that deal with other planes in some way, there usually is a statement that says "on your home plane" or "from your/creatures home plane". Im assuming that this means the plane you are currently on - as opposed to the plane from which you originated from.
Why would you assume that?
A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane.
Why would "home plane" mean something other than "the plane that is your home?" Of course it doesn't mean "wherever you happen to be." If it did, it wouldn't be included - it's not like you could sit in Elysium and target slaad on Mechanus so they're banished back to Limbo. For further evidence, see below.

Anyway, don't use Banishment on the enemies when you're both out of your habitat (it won't function for you). Hit them with Dismissal. While Banishment claims to be more powerful, it isn't necessarily. Dismissal's DC goes up 1 for 1 with your caster level; it also goes down 1 for 1 with the target's HD, but CR is often greater than HD, which means creatures you cast it on will probably experience a nasty boost in the save DC.

You can be Banished or Dismissed when you're not on the Prime; you're extraplanar whenever you're not on your home plane.
Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane.
Bolithio
08-07-07, 10:00 AM Well take for Gate for instance:

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Does your plane mean your home plane?
Sarlax
08-08-07, 01:07 AM Does your plane mean your home plane?
Probably not. The core rules are primocentric (written from a default Prime Material Plane perspective). Note that all outsiders from other planes have the extraplanar subtype, even if you will almost never encounter them outside of their home plane. Anyway, that particular line is part of a kind of the spell's "intro," with the specifics of the rule later: "As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect);" Plane Shift doesn't require that you cast it from the Prime.

Now, home plane is an obvious term - It's the plane you're native to. The only reason one would interpret it otherwise would be to get more use out of particular spells.

Here's some evidence: You can't cast Fireball from one plane into another, nor Web, Telekinesis, or Reverse Gravity, etc. You can't cast spells into other planes because you need line of sight/line of effect.

Banishment specifies that you "force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane." Why would it say home plane if you could cast it from anywhere? Reading it as "the plane you're on," makes its inclusion absurd, since you can only target creatures that are currently in the same plane as you. It would be like Fireball saying, "A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature on on the same plane as you within the area."
Kouk
08-08-07, 03:05 AM A creature's "home" plane is where it was born or created. If you are on a plane that you were not born or created on, you are "extraplanar" to that plane, and are subject to being sent back home. If you're worried, you may want to see if you can get yourself Dimensionally Anchored (I believe that will work for stopping a Dismissal or something that "sends" you to a different plane).

I believe in the case of Banishment, the intention was for it to behave like Dismissal, that's why they reference it.

I take the "from your home plane" to be an artifact of the assumption that pretty much all campaigns take place on the plane the party is native to (and that some of their enemies are not).

The first couple of sentences in describing spells or feats are often fluff, and the actual mechanics are (usually) explicit about what is included. I think if they really meant you could only cast that to any effect when you were on your native plane, they would say "this spell does not function if the caster is on a plane other than his native plane" or something to that effect.

But clearly there is some disagreement, so ask your DM what his view is.

If you are going to go traveling around the multiverse, brush up on these rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm
And don't forget to have your character do some "in game" research about the topic.

Also, here is the definition of "Extraplanar Subtype"
Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.
Bolithio
08-08-07, 09:38 AM That is how I originally looked at it, but as pointed out, it comes down to how the DM will rule on it. Thanks for your clarifications.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bolithio 08-07-07, 01:16 AM	In most spell descriptions that deal with other planes in some way, there usually is a statement that says "on your home plane" or "from your/creatures home plane". Im assuming that this means the plane you are currently on - as opposed to the plane from which you originated from. I was thinking specifically of spells like dismissal or banishment, when used on non-prime planes. For instance if a wizard cast Banishment on an efreeti encountered in a lower plane - would the spell function sending the efreeti to his native plane of fire? How about normal Summon spells. Do these function in the other planes? Obviously you would not be able to summon a creature from the plane you were on, but im assuming you could summon other creatures. I was also wondering how these spells would effect creatures - perhaps PCs - from prime worlds. Would a Banishment send a human back to the material plane? Would it be possible to summon a creature from the material plane if on a different plane? Just wanted to know how this works before my wizard leaves the Prime worlds behind....;)
Sarlax 08-07-07, 01:30 AM	In most spell descriptions that deal with other planes in some way, there usually is a statement that says "on your home plane" or "from your/creatures home plane". Im assuming that this means the plane you are currently on - as opposed to the plane from which you originated from. Why would you assume that? A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. Why would "home plane" mean something other than "the plane that is your home?" Of course it doesn't mean "wherever you happen to be." If it did, it wouldn't be included - it's not like you could sit in Elysium and target slaad on Mechanus so they're banished back to Limbo. For further evidence, see below. Anyway, don't use Banishment on the enemies when you're both out of your habitat (it won't function for you). Hit them with Dismissal. While Banishment claims to be more powerful, it isn't necessarily. Dismissal's DC goes up 1 for 1 with your caster level; it also goes down 1 for 1 with the target's HD, but CR is often greater than HD, which means creatures you cast it on will probably experience a nasty boost in the save DC. You can be Banished or Dismissed when you're not on the Prime; you're extraplanar whenever you're not on your home plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane.
Bolithio 08-07-07, 10:00 AM	Well take for Gate for instance: Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction. Does your plane mean your home plane?
Sarlax 08-08-07, 01:07 AM	Does your plane mean your home plane? Probably not. The core rules are primocentric (written from a default Prime Material Plane perspective). Note that all outsiders from other planes have the extraplanar subtype, even if you will almost never encounter them outside of their home plane. Anyway, that particular line is part of a kind of the spell's "intro," with the specifics of the rule later: "As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect);" Plane Shift doesn't require that you cast it from the Prime. Now, home plane is an obvious term - It's the plane you're native to. The only reason one would interpret it otherwise would be to get more use out of particular spells. Here's some evidence: You can't cast Fireball from one plane into another, nor Web, Telekinesis, or Reverse Gravity, etc. You can't cast spells into other planes because you need line of sight/line of effect. Banishment specifies that you "force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane." Why would it say home plane if you could cast it from anywhere? Reading it as "the plane you're on," makes its inclusion absurd, since you can only target creatures that are currently in the same plane as you. It would be like Fireball saying, "A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature on on the same plane as you within the area."
Kouk 08-08-07, 03:05 AM	A creature's "home" plane is where it was born or created. If you are on a plane that you were not born or created on, you are "extraplanar" to that plane, and are subject to being sent back home. If you're worried, you may want to see if you can get yourself Dimensionally Anchored (I believe that will work for stopping a Dismissal or something that "sends" you to a different plane). I believe in the case of Banishment, the intention was for it to behave like Dismissal, that's why they reference it. I take the "from your home plane" to be an artifact of the assumption that pretty much all campaigns take place on the plane the party is native to (and that some of their enemies are not). The first couple of sentences in describing spells or feats are often fluff, and the actual mechanics are (usually) explicit about what is included. I think if they really meant you could only cast that to any effect when you were on your native plane, they would say "this spell does not function if the caster is on a plane other than his native plane" or something to that effect. But clearly there is some disagreement, so ask your DM what his view is. If you are going to go traveling around the multiverse, brush up on these rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm And don't forget to have your character do some "in game" research about the topic. Also, here is the definition of "Extraplanar Subtype" Extraplanar Subtype A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.
Bolithio 08-08-07, 09:38 AM	That is how I originally looked at it, but as pointed out, it comes down to how the DM will rule on it. Thanks for your clarifications.