Casting Shapechange Twice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting Shapechange Twice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sentinel of Bharrai
02-09-05, 04:25 PM I just wanted to know what people's thoughts are on casting Shapechange twice on the same character. From what I can tell from the rules in the PHB, both spells are up simultaneously. That being the case, if you have two casting of Shapechange in effect simultaneously, does that mean you could change form (a free action) into a beholder and use all its eye rays (also a free action) and then use the second shapechange to do the same thing again?

I can't recall off the top of my head, but does changing back into your normal form end the Shapechange spell?
SALDAR
02-09-05, 04:37 PM They would end at the same time. The beholder trick wouldn't work because of the limit of one free action per round when using it to attack, cast a spell, activate a spell's effect, or any other offensive action. You might talk your Dm into letting you to change shape twice in a round with two spells going, but not attack twice as two different free actions. As DM I stick to the basic rule of spells with the same effect running at the same time not stacking unless specified within the spell's description that it can do so. If you cast shapechange twice then the second casting overrides the first and you would not gain extra benefits.
tarkin
02-09-05, 05:02 PM They don't work, but not for the reason Saldar mentioned.

There is no limit on free actions - if a free action is supposed to be limited in that way it is called a "swift action", not a free action.

However, the spell itself clearly indicates that casting it twice will not help. It is not worded so as to add the ability 1/round of changing as a free action.

Instead, the spell is clearly worded as granting you the shape changing ability with a limit of 1/round. The spell does not state you can change form 1 additional time per round, it simply states that while under the spell, once per round you may change form as a free action.

As such, casting the spell multiple times does not change the effect of the spell - no matter how many times you cast it, you are still not allowed to change forms more than 1/round.
Nom
02-09-05, 05:11 PM Yes, you are granted 1 ability twice (ie the second is redundant), not two abilities (or two uses of the same ability).
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-09-05, 05:11 PM Let me add to Tarkin's post: I would rule that the second casting of Shapechange causes the spell duration to start over. In other words, the two spells overlap, they don't stack. The same thing would happen if you cast Shield twice, or Polymorph twice, or any number of other spells.
Sentinel of Bharrai
02-09-05, 05:12 PM I understand your reasoning, Tarkin. I considered that if someone tried to dispel your Shapechange spells, they would need to do it twice--once for each spell. In my mind, I look at it as being two seperate spells that would each give you a free action to change form. I don't think the rules are definitive either way. Although I think in the interest of game balance, it should work as you described.
cwslyclgh
02-09-05, 05:22 PM the way I see it spells are like diseases, you are either under thier effects or you are not. (obvious exceptions to this are instananeous spells, or spells such as resist elements which can be cast multiple times to cause different effects (such as casting it 3 times to resist 3 different energy types).
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-09-05, 05:27 PM I understand your reasoning, Tarkin. I considered that if someone tried to dispel your Shapechange spells, they would need to do it twice--once for each spell. In my mind, I look at it as being two seperate spells that would each give you a free action to change form. I don't think the rules are definitive either way. Although I think in the interest of game balance, it should work as you described.
You cannot receive the same type of bonuses from the same source twice. The game doesn't work that way. I can't cast Bull's Strength multiple times and increase my strength beyond the +4 bonus the first spell grants. However, if I cast the spell a second time 1 minute after the first, the spell effect lasts for the entire duration of the second spell (i.e. 1 minute longer than the first one).

The same is true of the "bonuses" you receive from Shapechange. The spell overlaps with itself. It doesn't stack.
Sentinel of Bharrai
02-09-05, 05:36 PM Let me add to Tarkin's post: I would rule that the second casting of Shapechange causes the spell duration to start over. In other words, the two spells overlap, they don't stack. The same thing would happen if you cast Shield twice, or Polymorph twice, or any number of other spells.

From what I can tell, it would seem that if you Polymorph yourself into an ogre, and then next round you are polymorphed into a kobold by another mage, both spells are still up. And if you're duration is longer than the other mage's, then you would eventually revert back to an ogre as soon as the poly-kobold duration expires. Casting Shield twice, or any spells that grants enhancement bonuses of a particular type, isn't really comparable since we already know bonuses of the same type don't stack.
Sentinel of Bharrai
02-09-05, 05:40 PM You cannot receive the same type of bonuses from the same source twice. The game doesn't work that way. I can't cast Bull's Strength multiple times and increase my strength beyond the +4 bonus the first spell grants. However, if I cast the spell a second time 1 minute after the first, the spell effect lasts for the entire duration of the second spell (i.e. 1 minute longer than the first one).

The same is true of the "bonuses" you receive from Shapechange. The spell overlaps with itself. It doesn't stack.

Your example is not comparable...but you can't stack bonuses of the same type (with one or two exceptions). I'm not looking to stack any bonuses of any specific type. The ability to change shape as a free action is not a "bonus" of the spell, at least as far as I can tell.
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-09-05, 05:43 PM From what I can tell, it would seem that if you Polymorph yourself into an ogre, and then next round you are polymorphed into a kobold by another mage, both spells are still up. And if you're duration is longer than the other mage's, then you would eventually revert back to an ogre as soon as the poly-kobold duration expires.
Are you talking about Polymorph Any Object? If you accept a Polymorph from another mage, it simply restarts the duration or, if that duration is shorter than the duration of your already-running Polymorph, doesn't have an effect. Regardless, you can't utilize both spells in the same round in order to change twice or whatever.

I wouldn't allow both spells to be in effect on you at once. Both spells are dismissable; you'd have to decide at the time of the second mage's casting, which spell you wanted to be in effect. The other one would be dismissed automatically.
Sentinel of Bharrai
02-09-05, 06:08 PM Are you talking about Polymorph Any Object? If you accept a Polymorph from another mage, it simply restarts the duration or, if that duration is shorter than the duration of your already-running Polymorph, doesn't have an effect. Regardless, you can't utilize both spells in the same round in order to change twice or whatever.

I wouldn't allow both spells to be in effect on you at once. Both spells are dismissable; you'd have to decide at the time of the second mage's casting, which spell you wanted to be in effect. The other one would be dismissed automatically.

IIRC, Polymorph targets any willing creature...so in my example, I was indicating being polymorphed twice. According to the PHB, you don't get to choose which spell you want to have in effect. The spell most recently cast is what is going to be in effect. My example is only to note that once the most recent polymorph spell's duration expires, any previous casting of polymorph would still be up and running if the duration allows for it.
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-09-05, 06:31 PM My example is only to note that once the most recent polymorph spell's duration expires, any previous casting of polymorph would still be up and running if the duration allows for it.
I think we're talking about the same thing: the spells overlapping, not stacking. :)
Snarf
02-09-05, 08:43 PM Overlapping and stacking are terms applied to bonuses, not spells.

You can get a bonus from a spell, it will not stack with the same bonus from another casting of the same spell, or with the same type of bonus from another source.

That's a separate concept from having two spells in effect at the same time, which apply the same effect (not a bonus) to the target. The example of two Polymorphs is a good one. If, say, Mr. Sentinal of Bharri is Polymorphed into a Dire Bear, then gets Baleful Polymorphed into a Bunny, which is subsequently dispelled, does he return to Dire Bear or "normal" form? The Polymorph effect is still up, there's no rules text that states that the first spell's duration expires when another shape-changing effect overrides it. The "last effect wins" but that in itself does not negate the existence of the previously-applied spell.

It's exactly this type of logic that leads to the worst abuses of Wild Shape in the CO board (being able to accumulate the things that you get from changing shape, but don't lose when changing to another shape).
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-09-05, 08:54 PM Overlapping and stacking are terms applied to bonuses, not spells.
They are also terms that apply to durations, or anything else that either A) increases the effect of a previous effect , or B) exists along with but apart from a previous effect [i.e. overlap]. When I cast a spell on myself, then cast it again, does the duration of the second spell get added to the first (stack) or not (overlap)? The durations overlap, of course.

I'm suggesting that two castings of [i]Shapechange do not allow you to benefit from both of the spells at once, either from somehow "combining" two different forms, or from allowing you to activate both effects in a single round. The spells overlap; they do not stack.
Snarf
02-09-05, 09:55 PM Yowza, seldom have I written such trash, that'll teach me to post right before returning home from work. I concede the point...although I do think it's the spell's effects that are stacking/overlapping, not the durations per se.

I think you guys are on the money regarding the multiple shift issue, what kind of scares me is that it's an accident of wording in the spell's description that makes it so. There might well be other spells out there that contain hidden benefits from multiple castings that the author never intended.

I still haven't completely gotten out of the "no multiple identical spell effects" mindset from earlier versions of D&D, so I generally don't think to myself "what can I do with three of these up at once?" when analyzing a new spell for usefulness (or brokenness). Maybe I should re-read some spells :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sentinel of Bharrai 02-09-05, 04:25 PM	I just wanted to know what people's thoughts are on casting Shapechange twice on the same character. From what I can tell from the rules in the PHB, both spells are up simultaneously. That being the case, if you have two casting of Shapechange in effect simultaneously, does that mean you could change form (a free action) into a beholder and use all its eye rays (also a free action) and then use the second shapechange to do the same thing again? I can't recall off the top of my head, but does changing back into your normal form end the Shapechange spell?
SALDAR 02-09-05, 04:37 PM	They would end at the same time. The beholder trick wouldn't work because of the limit of one free action per round when using it to attack, cast a spell, activate a spell's effect, or any other offensive action. You might talk your Dm into letting you to change shape twice in a round with two spells going, but not attack twice as two different free actions. As DM I stick to the basic rule of spells with the same effect running at the same time not stacking unless specified within the spell's description that it can do so. If you cast shapechange twice then the second casting overrides the first and you would not gain extra benefits.
tarkin 02-09-05, 05:02 PM	They don't work, but not for the reason Saldar mentioned. There is no limit on free actions - if a free action is supposed to be limited in that way it is called a "swift action", not a free action. However, the spell itself clearly indicates that casting it twice will not help. It is not worded so as to add the ability 1/round of changing as a free action. Instead, the spell is clearly worded as granting you the shape changing ability with a limit of 1/round. The spell does not state you can change form 1 additional time per round, it simply states that while under the spell, once per round you may change form as a free action. As such, casting the spell multiple times does not change the effect of the spell - no matter how many times you cast it, you are still not allowed to change forms more than 1/round.
Nom 02-09-05, 05:11 PM	Yes, you are granted 1 ability twice (ie the second is redundant), not two abilities (or two uses of the same ability).
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-09-05, 05:11 PM	Let me add to Tarkin's post: I would rule that the second casting of Shapechange causes the spell duration to start over. In other words, the two spells overlap, they don't stack. The same thing would happen if you cast Shield twice, or Polymorph twice, or any number of other spells.
Sentinel of Bharrai 02-09-05, 05:12 PM	I understand your reasoning, Tarkin. I considered that if someone tried to dispel your Shapechange spells, they would need to do it twice--once for each spell. In my mind, I look at it as being two seperate spells that would each give you a free action to change form. I don't think the rules are definitive either way. Although I think in the interest of game balance, it should work as you described.
cwslyclgh 02-09-05, 05:22 PM	the way I see it spells are like diseases, you are either under thier effects or you are not. (obvious exceptions to this are instananeous spells, or spells such as resist elements which can be cast multiple times to cause different effects (such as casting it 3 times to resist 3 different energy types).
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-09-05, 05:27 PM	I understand your reasoning, Tarkin. I considered that if someone tried to dispel your Shapechange spells, they would need to do it twice--once for each spell. In my mind, I look at it as being two seperate spells that would each give you a free action to change form. I don't think the rules are definitive either way. Although I think in the interest of game balance, it should work as you described. You cannot receive the same type of bonuses from the same source twice. The game doesn't work that way. I can't cast Bull's Strength multiple times and increase my strength beyond the +4 bonus the first spell grants. However, if I cast the spell a second time 1 minute after the first, the spell effect lasts for the entire duration of the second spell (i.e. 1 minute longer than the first one). The same is true of the "bonuses" you receive from Shapechange. The spell overlaps with itself. It doesn't stack.
Sentinel of Bharrai 02-09-05, 05:36 PM	Let me add to Tarkin's post: I would rule that the second casting of Shapechange causes the spell duration to start over. In other words, the two spells overlap, they don't stack. The same thing would happen if you cast Shield twice, or Polymorph twice, or any number of other spells. From what I can tell, it would seem that if you Polymorph yourself into an ogre, and then next round you are polymorphed into a kobold by another mage, both spells are still up. And if you're duration is longer than the other mage's, then you would eventually revert back to an ogre as soon as the poly-kobold duration expires. Casting Shield twice, or any spells that grants enhancement bonuses of a particular type, isn't really comparable since we already know bonuses of the same type don't stack.
Sentinel of Bharrai 02-09-05, 05:40 PM	You cannot receive the same type of bonuses from the same source twice. The game doesn't work that way. I can't cast Bull's Strength multiple times and increase my strength beyond the +4 bonus the first spell grants. However, if I cast the spell a second time 1 minute after the first, the spell effect lasts for the entire duration of the second spell (i.e. 1 minute longer than the first one). The same is true of the "bonuses" you receive from Shapechange. The spell overlaps with itself. It doesn't stack. Your example is not comparable...but you can't stack bonuses of the same type (with one or two exceptions). I'm not looking to stack any bonuses of any specific type. The ability to change shape as a free action is not a "bonus" of the spell, at least as far as I can tell.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-09-05, 05:43 PM	From what I can tell, it would seem that if you Polymorph yourself into an ogre, and then next round you are polymorphed into a kobold by another mage, both spells are still up. And if you're duration is longer than the other mage's, then you would eventually revert back to an ogre as soon as the poly-kobold duration expires. Are you talking about Polymorph Any Object? If you accept a Polymorph from another mage, it simply restarts the duration or, if that duration is shorter than the duration of your already-running Polymorph, doesn't have an effect. Regardless, you can't utilize both spells in the same round in order to change twice or whatever. I wouldn't allow both spells to be in effect on you at once. Both spells are dismissable; you'd have to decide at the time of the second mage's casting, which spell you wanted to be in effect. The other one would be dismissed automatically.
Sentinel of Bharrai 02-09-05, 06:08 PM	Are you talking about Polymorph Any Object? If you accept a Polymorph from another mage, it simply restarts the duration or, if that duration is shorter than the duration of your already-running Polymorph, doesn't have an effect. Regardless, you can't utilize both spells in the same round in order to change twice or whatever. I wouldn't allow both spells to be in effect on you at once. Both spells are dismissable; you'd have to decide at the time of the second mage's casting, which spell you wanted to be in effect. The other one would be dismissed automatically. IIRC, Polymorph targets any willing creature...so in my example, I was indicating being polymorphed twice. According to the PHB, you don't get to choose which spell you want to have in effect. The spell most recently cast is what is going to be in effect. My example is only to note that once the most recent polymorph spell's duration expires, any previous casting of polymorph would still be up and running if the duration allows for it.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-09-05, 06:31 PM	My example is only to note that once the most recent polymorph spell's duration expires, any previous casting of polymorph would still be up and running if the duration allows for it. I think we're talking about the same thing: the spells overlapping, not stacking. :)
Snarf 02-09-05, 08:43 PM	Overlapping and stacking are terms applied to bonuses, not spells. You can get a bonus from a spell, it will not stack with the same bonus from another casting of the same spell, or with the same type of bonus from another source. That's a separate concept from having two spells in effect at the same time, which apply the same effect (not a bonus) to the target. The example of two Polymorphs is a good one. If, say, Mr. Sentinal of Bharri is Polymorphed into a Dire Bear, then gets Baleful Polymorphed into a Bunny, which is subsequently dispelled, does he return to Dire Bear or "normal" form? The Polymorph effect is still up, there's no rules text that states that the first spell's duration expires when another shape-changing effect overrides it. The "last effect wins" but that in itself does not negate the existence of the previously-applied spell. It's exactly this type of logic that leads to the worst abuses of Wild Shape in the CO board (being able to accumulate the things that you get from changing shape, but don't lose when changing to another shape).
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-09-05, 08:54 PM	Overlapping and stacking are terms applied to bonuses, not spells. They are also terms that apply to durations, or anything else that either A) increases the effect of a previous effect , or B) exists along with but apart from a previous effect [i.e. overlap]. When I cast a spell on myself, then cast it again, does the duration of the second spell get added to the first (stack) or not (overlap)? The durations overlap, of course. I'm suggesting that two castings of [i]Shapechange do not allow you to benefit from both of the spells at once, either from somehow "combining" two different forms, or from allowing you to activate both effects in a single round. The spells overlap; they do not stack.
Snarf 02-09-05, 09:55 PM	Yowza, seldom have I written such trash, that'll teach me to post right before returning home from work. I concede the point...although I do think it's the spell's effects that are stacking/overlapping, not the durations per se. I think you guys are on the money regarding the multiple shift issue, what kind of scares me is that it's an accident of wording in the spell's description that makes it so. There might well be other spells out there that contain hidden benefits from multiple castings that the author never intended. I still haven't completely gotten out of the "no multiple identical spell effects" mindset from earlier versions of D&D, so I generally don't think to myself "what can I do with three of these up at once?" when analyzing a new spell for usefulness (or brokenness). Maybe I should re-read some spells :)