casting spells and touch attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

casting spells and touch attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zog_Jakome
12-05-07, 04:50 AM ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target.

you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge.
Merestil Haye
12-05-07, 05:55 AM ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target.

you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge.Casting a spell is generally a standard action, and if you do so you cannot take an attack action in the same round.

However, casting a spell with a range of "touch" has special rules attached to it. It is legal to cast a touch spell and attempt to deliver the spell in the same action. It is even legal to cast the spell, take a move action to close with your target and attempt to deliver the spell.

The rules explicitly allow this to be done. If they did not, you would not be able to cast the spell and deliver it in the same round.

How you flavour the actions is up to you. For what it's worth, I generally describe the attack as being worked into the spellcasting.
kuonji
12-05-07, 06:20 AM ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target.

you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge.

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge
In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

Holding a charge doesn't seem to take any kind of action, standard or otherwise, it's just something you choose to do. If you cast a touch spell and do not touch a target as part of the casting, then you are considered to be holding the charge. To use your held charge, you make a touch attack, which is a standard action.
Zog_Jakome
12-05-07, 08:49 AM so basically this is what wizards call an exception rule. They call it that from rules compendium. it is basicall a rule that does not conform to the other rules.
Nom
12-05-07, 08:54 AM Note that if you miss your touch attack (failing to make touch AC or a miss chance or any other reason), you also end up holding the charge by default.
Goof
12-05-07, 12:14 PM Would rolling a 1 result in discharging (onto yourself) with touch attacks? Or can you hold charge.

Also could a monk attack with a touch based spell doing his normal dmg and the touch spell damage?
narack
12-05-07, 12:33 PM well There is a difference between "touch" target and "attack". there is no power on a touch. It even less powerfull than a slap which cause 1 Temp damage :P
Mindolin
12-05-07, 12:51 PM Yes, a Monk can do that, but it's no longer a touch attack, he delivers the spell on a regular attack.
Goof
12-05-07, 12:53 PM ya, I do aggree there is a difference, but I am touching you with my hand.

I could be using a fist, palm thrust, or openslice with my fingers. In all cases I think it would constitute as a touch that would allow discharge.

If I actually have to delicately touch with the tought of discharge, then I think it would be imposible to discharge on yourself.(forced or rolling a 1)

I would like to know what the rules are on this, or other peoples thought.
Merestil Haye
12-05-07, 01:38 PM ya, I do aggree there is a difference, but I am touching you with my hand.

I could be using a fist, palm thrust, or openslice with my fingers. In all cases I think it would constitute as a touch that would allow discharge.

If I actually have to delicately touch with the tought of discharge, then I think it would be imposible to discharge on yourself.(forced or rolling a 1)

I would like to know what the rules are on this, or other peoples thought.The rules are "If you roll a 1, you miss."

The rules are not "If you roll a 1, not only do you miss but you might hurt yourself or one of your friends."

When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, all that happens is that you miss. Nothing else. There is zero chance that you accidentally discharge the spell.
Damned slayer
12-05-07, 01:42 PM The rules are "If you roll a 1, you miss."

The rules are not "If you roll a 1, not only do you miss but you might hurt yourself or one of your friends."

When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, all that happens is that you miss. Nothing else. There is zero chance that you accidentally discharge the spell.

are you sure that 1 isn't a critical miss
I think its core rule not sure might be an alternative rule
Don't know where I picked that but on a natural 1 characters/monsters must make a reflex save D15 or something bad happens
I'm pretty shure I read that somewhere and that I didn't made it up and I only bother to read/use books published by WoTC

edit: as for 20 critical hit why 1 wouldnt be critical miss with bad effect they were table in 2nd so I don't think they removed it
Goof
12-05-07, 02:49 PM Hollycrap batman!

And this whole time we have been playing w/ the 1 as a critical miss, and I don't know where it got started. And it is pretty prevalent as a lot of people use it. Not just one group, but several groups I know of, in different states that do not know each other.

Wow. thanks.

But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow?
Merestil Haye
12-05-07, 03:34 PM are you sure that 1 isn't a critical miss Yes, absolutely.I think its core rule not sure might be an alternative rule
Don't know where I picked that but on a natural 1 characters/monsters must make a reflex save D15 or something bad happens
I'm pretty shure I read that somewhere and that I didn't made it up and I only bother to read/use books published by WoTC

edit: as for 20 critical hit why 1 wouldnt be critical miss with bad effect they were table in 2nd so I don't think they removed itThey did.

20 is not a critical hit. It is an automatic hit and a critical threat; not a critical hit.. To balance this, a natural 1 is an automatic miss with no other rules attached anywhere.

Any you may have read are houserules or other people who think that that is what the rules say expressing their (erroneous) opinion.
BananaB
12-05-07, 03:54 PM But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow?

Holding a charge simply means you chose not to touch anything. You are in no way holding back the spell and stopping it from working. If you hold a charge and the battle ends you can continue holding the charge but if you touch anything with the hand the charge is on then the spell is cast on that thing, even if its a wall or some other inatemate object, you have no choice.

So when you're being grappled and forced to touch yourself you have just casted shocking grasp on yourself and you can't do anything to stop it.
Damned slayer
12-05-07, 04:01 PM Hollycrap batman!

And this whole time we have been playing w/ the 1 as a critical miss, and I don't know where it got started. And it is pretty prevalent as a lot of people use it. Not just one group, but several groups I know of, in different states that do not know each other.

Wow. thanks.

But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow?

yes it would discharge
same as if you were picking an item or touching the ground
from SRD
Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks

Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge

If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

for those searching if you could make normal attack while holding the charge
Rune_Munch
12-05-07, 05:12 PM ... I don't know where it got started...

It is most likely a leftover from someone you know having played a Palladium game and who has then taken some bad habbits along with them into D&D. It's understandable since they are both d20 based :) Done it myself a few times.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zog_Jakome 12-05-07, 04:50 AM	ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target. you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge.
Merestil Haye 12-05-07, 05:55 AM	ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target. you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge.Casting a spell is generally a standard action, and if you do so you cannot take an attack action in the same round. However, casting a spell with a range of "touch" has special rules attached to it. It is legal to cast a touch spell and attempt to deliver the spell in the same action. It is even legal to cast the spell, take a move action to close with your target and attempt to deliver the spell. The rules explicitly allow this to be done. If they did not, you would not be able to cast the spell and deliver it in the same round. How you flavour the actions is up to you. For what it's worth, I generally describe the attack as being worked into the spellcasting.
kuonji 12-05-07, 06:20 AM	ok if it is a standard action to cast a spell, would it be another standard action to touch the target. you may argue that touching the target is part of spell so in essence the casting part is not really the standard action, touching the target is. so when I cast a touch spell I can hold the charge so would it be a standard action to hold the charge. Touch Spells and Holding the Charge In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell. Holding a charge doesn't seem to take any kind of action, standard or otherwise, it's just something you choose to do. If you cast a touch spell and do not touch a target as part of the casting, then you are considered to be holding the charge. To use your held charge, you make a touch attack, which is a standard action.
Zog_Jakome 12-05-07, 08:49 AM	so basically this is what wizards call an exception rule. They call it that from rules compendium. it is basicall a rule that does not conform to the other rules.
Nom 12-05-07, 08:54 AM	Note that if you miss your touch attack (failing to make touch AC or a miss chance or any other reason), you also end up holding the charge by default.
Goof 12-05-07, 12:14 PM	Would rolling a 1 result in discharging (onto yourself) with touch attacks? Or can you hold charge. Also could a monk attack with a touch based spell doing his normal dmg and the touch spell damage?
narack 12-05-07, 12:33 PM	well There is a difference between "touch" target and "attack". there is no power on a touch. It even less powerfull than a slap which cause 1 Temp damage :P
Mindolin 12-05-07, 12:51 PM	Yes, a Monk can do that, but it's no longer a touch attack, he delivers the spell on a regular attack.
Goof 12-05-07, 12:53 PM	ya, I do aggree there is a difference, but I am touching you with my hand. I could be using a fist, palm thrust, or openslice with my fingers. In all cases I think it would constitute as a touch that would allow discharge. If I actually have to delicately touch with the tought of discharge, then I think it would be imposible to discharge on yourself.(forced or rolling a 1) I would like to know what the rules are on this, or other peoples thought.
Merestil Haye 12-05-07, 01:38 PM	ya, I do aggree there is a difference, but I am touching you with my hand. I could be using a fist, palm thrust, or openslice with my fingers. In all cases I think it would constitute as a touch that would allow discharge. If I actually have to delicately touch with the tought of discharge, then I think it would be imposible to discharge on yourself.(forced or rolling a 1) I would like to know what the rules are on this, or other peoples thought.The rules are "If you roll a 1, you miss." The rules are not "If you roll a 1, not only do you miss but you might hurt yourself or one of your friends." When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, all that happens is that you miss. Nothing else. There is zero chance that you accidentally discharge the spell.
Damned slayer 12-05-07, 01:42 PM	The rules are "If you roll a 1, you miss." The rules are not "If you roll a 1, not only do you miss but you might hurt yourself or one of your friends." When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, all that happens is that you miss. Nothing else. There is zero chance that you accidentally discharge the spell. are you sure that 1 isn't a critical miss I think its core rule not sure might be an alternative rule Don't know where I picked that but on a natural 1 characters/monsters must make a reflex save D15 or something bad happens I'm pretty shure I read that somewhere and that I didn't made it up and I only bother to read/use books published by WoTC edit: as for 20 critical hit why 1 wouldnt be critical miss with bad effect they were table in 2nd so I don't think they removed it
Goof 12-05-07, 02:49 PM	Hollycrap batman! And this whole time we have been playing w/ the 1 as a critical miss, and I don't know where it got started. And it is pretty prevalent as a lot of people use it. Not just one group, but several groups I know of, in different states that do not know each other. Wow. thanks. But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow?
Merestil Haye 12-05-07, 03:34 PM	are you sure that 1 isn't a critical miss Yes, absolutely.I think its core rule not sure might be an alternative rule Don't know where I picked that but on a natural 1 characters/monsters must make a reflex save D15 or something bad happens I'm pretty shure I read that somewhere and that I didn't made it up and I only bother to read/use books published by WoTC edit: as for 20 critical hit why 1 wouldnt be critical miss with bad effect they were table in 2nd so I don't think they removed itThey did. 20 is not a critical hit. It is an automatic hit and a critical threat; not a critical hit.. To balance this, a natural 1 is an automatic miss with no other rules attached anywhere. Any you may have read are houserules or other people who think that that is what the rules say expressing their (erroneous) opinion.
BananaB 12-05-07, 03:54 PM	But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow? Holding a charge simply means you chose not to touch anything. You are in no way holding back the spell and stopping it from working. If you hold a charge and the battle ends you can continue holding the charge but if you touch anything with the hand the charge is on then the spell is cast on that thing, even if its a wall or some other inatemate object, you have no choice. So when you're being grappled and forced to touch yourself you have just casted shocking grasp on yourself and you can't do anything to stop it.
Damned slayer 12-05-07, 04:01 PM	Hollycrap batman! And this whole time we have been playing w/ the 1 as a critical miss, and I don't know where it got started. And it is pretty prevalent as a lot of people use it. Not just one group, but several groups I know of, in different states that do not know each other. Wow. thanks. But in the case of being grappled and force to touch myself after costing shocking grasp, would it discharge, or can I hold it somehow? yes it would discharge same as if you were picking an item or touching the ground from SRD Touch Spells in Combat Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. for those searching if you could make normal attack while holding the charge
Rune_Munch 12-05-07, 05:12 PM	... I don't know where it got started... It is most likely a leftover from someone you know having played a Palladium game and who has then taken some bad habbits along with them into D&D. It's understandable since they are both d20 based :) Done it myself a few times.