Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jim Johnny 03-22-07, 04:22 PM	a simple question (given in an example to be more easily understood) let's say that i am a 10th level Wizard and i want to cast a spell from a scroll. The scroll has a caster level of 12. This exceeds my caster level by two, so i have to make a caster level check as the DM's guide suggests against a DC= caster level of scroll +1. In this case the DC is 13. But what exactly do i roll and add for the caster level check?:confused:
Loki5654 03-22-07, 04:27 PM	Roll a d20 and add your caster level. In your case, it would be d20 + 10 vs. DC13. So unless you roll a 1 or a 2 you're good to go. To clarify: caster level check A roll of 1d20 + the caster level (in the relevant class). If the result equals or exceeds the DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.
Jim Johnny 03-22-07, 04:40 PM	Ok, now here is the problem. (thanks for replying by the way) Does n't that sound a bit too overpowered? Imagine a 1st level spellcaster. He will be able with a little bit of luck to cast a caster level 15th spell. DC=16. So he must roll at least 15. 25% chance. 25% chance to cast Horrid Wilting or power word, stun. And with the only drwback in case he loses the DC, to have to roll a DC 5 will check (roll a 3 or 4 if we cosnider his wisdom bonus). Shouldn't that be to good to be true?
Loki5654 03-22-07, 04:56 PM	Ok, now here is the problem. (thanks for replying by the way) Does n't that sound a bit too overpowered? Imagine a 1st level spellcaster. He will be able with a little bit of luck to cast a caster level 15th spell. DC=16. So he must roll at least 15. 25% chance. 25% chance to cast Horrid Wilting or power word, stun. And with the only drwback in case he loses the DC, to have to roll a DC 5 will check (roll a 3 or 4 if we cosnider his wisdom bonus). Shouldn't that be to good to be true? Well...I can only see that happening one of two ways: 1. The PC buys the scroll or 2. The PC finds the scroll In #1's case, the DM should never have made the scroll available to such a low level caster nor should the DM have let the caster have enough spare cash to purchase it. In #2's case it is the DM's fault (again) for placing it as part of the treasure. It is part of the DM's job to make sure that things like a 1st level caster getting a hold of a 9th level scroll never happen (unless it is crucial to the plot). So, to answer your question: While the numbers you suggest are statistically correct, such a scenario should not occur in any game led by a competent DM.
Merestil Haye 03-22-07, 05:00 PM	Ok, now here is the problem. (thanks for replying by the way) Does n't that sound a bit too overpowered? Imagine a 1st level spellcaster. He will be able with a little bit of luck to cast a caster level 15th spell. DC=16. So he must roll at least 15. 25% chance. 25% chance to cast Horrid Wilting or power word, stun. And with the only drwback in case he loses the DC, to have to roll a DC 5 will check (roll a 3 or 4 if we cosnider his wisdom bonus). Shouldn't that be to good to be true?Not really. Consider the result of failure. He has three chances in four of failing to activate the scroll. If he fails, before he can try again, whatever monster caused him to decide to try to make the scroll work will have attacked him, and quite possibly killed him. Also remember that to cast Horrid Wilting you need an Int of 18, and you probably need to make a DC23 Concentration check with your modifier of +5 or +6. That's assuming that ASF doesn't rear its ugly head. Then finally every time you do fail you risk a backlash, with a guaranteed 5% failure chance.
Jim Johnny 03-22-07, 05:19 PM	You are right about the ability score! Although a Wizard will have a high ability score from the beginning , probably an 18. The monster confrontation thing is only a hypothesis. We might just talk about an etherealness spell in order to get inside a treasure vault or an extended fly spell. It does not have to be in combat or near a monster. And after all we are not talking exclusively for so powerful spells. Imagine a 1st level Wizard with a bunch of fireball scrolls of CL 5. He will be able to fry the whole poor goblin squad before even getting near him. You are right about the possibility of a 1st level character running into a 9th level spell scroll. But it is still a possibility. I do not like the idea of excluding the good fortune from a player character as i do not like the idea of excluding the bad one. If a player wants no matter what to visit the nearby dragon's cave just to collect mushrooms what should a DM do? Erase the possibility of a dragon sleeping inside because it will be to overpowered for the poor player? come on! It is the same world everything is taking place. Of course the Dm has to keep the balance but sometimes even less possible things might happen. And again if we think of less powerful spells, it is not so hard for a 1st lvl character to find 2nd lvl or 3rd lvl scrolls. And even these scrolls will make him overpowered. Don't you agree? The only drawback i find is drwing and opening the scroll is a move action so the whole process of casting a spell from a scroll will take the whole round for that spellcaster, but then again, (Is taht such a great problem?
ArcTan 03-22-07, 05:28 PM	You are right about the possibility of a 1st level character running into a 9th level spell scroll. But it is still a possibility. I do not like the idea of excluding the good fortune from a player character as i do not like the idea of excluding the bad one. If a player wants no matter what to visit the nearby dragon's cave just to collect mushrooms what should a DM do? Erase the possibility of a dragon sleeping inside because it will be to overpowered for the poor player? come on! It is the same world everything is taking place. Of course the Dm has to keep the balance but sometimes even less possible things might happen. Er, metagaming to make sure a PC doesn't horribly exceed his expected wealth for his level is part and parcel of a DM's job, and if you don't do it, anything that happens is your responsibility. (Seriously, even if you do the really lazy thing and just roll for treasure, you should be doing this only after encounters that were appropriate EL.) I mean, you do realize that D&D is *not* actually a "living, breathing world" but a set of cardboard cutouts and props you as the DM move around the PCs to make sure their story plays out the way you want it to, right? It's *possible*, I guess, for a level 1 party to wake up a dragon, but not *actually* possible because it's you-the-DM's job to make sure level 1 parties don't fight CR 17 monsters, and if the party all dies as a result it's your fault. (I mean, yes, they could insist on going to the dragon's cave, just as they could insist on all taking knives and slitting their own throats. It's your job to make them see why they shouldn't.) And again it is hard for a 1st lvl character to find 2nd lvl or 3rd scrolls. And even these scrolls will make him overpowered. Don't you agree? No. A scroll is a one-shot item. Use it once and it's gone forever. I don't see what the huge problem is with giving a PC an ace in the hole like that if he really needs one. He'd benefit a lot more if he's a Wizard and he saves the scroll until he's high-level enough to actually cast the spell. If he needs to burn that fireball to save his ass as a 1st-level character, and he makes the check, more power to him. It means he'll have to go buy that spell again when he actually wants it in his book. Look at it this way -- there is no rule that explicitly prevents a 1st-level Fighter from picking up and wielding a +5 holy keen flaming greatsword. And once he's got it, he can wield it all day, for as long as he wants, and takes no penalty for using it. Compare that to the 1st-level Wizard with a scroll of power word: kill. He has to roll a pretty difficult check to use the PWK -- first he has to decipher it with a Spellcraft check, which will take him a while. Then he has to make the CL check to use it, which is hard, and puts him at risk every time he fails. Finally, once he's done it, the scroll is *gone* and he can never use it again. I don't see what the problem is. The scroll is actually a lot *less* of a problem than the expensive weapon, and if you don't consider it a problem to keep +5 weapons out of the hands of 1st-level Fighters, why can't you keep 9th-level spell scrolls out of the hands of 1st-level Wizards?
Loki5654 03-22-07, 05:37 PM	(what I wanted to say but expressed much more intelligently) :clap:
Neutronium_Dragon 03-22-07, 06:47 PM	An 8th level spell scroll costs 3,000 GP (at least). A 1st level character isn't going to have that much money. Nor will a 2nd or 3rd level one. A 4th level one might if he sells virtually everything he owns. So the 1st level caster scenario shouldn't be happening unless it's an intentional plot point anyway.
Jim Johnny 03-22-07, 08:40 PM	I do not know how many years you play the game (and, please no offense to that). But i remember me and my friends when we were plying back in the early days of the 2nd edition and all the endless fun we had. And i believe that is what this game is all about. Fun!!! We were playing characters that were not only numbers on papers but they had their own personalities. One was reckless, the other one more wise etc DnD is a role playing game and thus when you play it and if you want to of course, you are allowed to feel like playing in a "living world" I mean, you do realize that D&D is *not* actually a "living, breathing world" but a set of cardboard cutouts and props you as the DM move around the PCs to make sure their story plays out the way you want it to, right? It's *possible*, I guess, for a level 1 party to wake up a dragon, but not *actually* possible because it's you-the-DM's job to make sure level 1 parties don't fight CR 17 monsters, and if the party all dies as a result it's your fault. (I mean, yes, they could insist on going to the dragon's cave, just as they could insist on all taking knives and slitting their own throats. It's your job to make them see why they shouldn't.) What you say is not right. This game should feel like playing another role in a different place (outside reality). You are not a good DM if you try and limit your players actions sometimes by suppressing their characters. A meeting with a CR17 monster could be a possibility. It is in your hands (the DM's) to give to that meeting an adventuring aspect or to make it fit the campaign. A good DM is the one who gives their players many and different options to the very end and even beyond that point. Because in this game death is not the end. A good DM can find one hundred and one ideas to change what seems inevitable, from using an NPC to more important powers. I agree with you that if the party dies it is the DM's fault. At least he has a part of the blame. But death should be an option. And it gives more taste to the game. A Dm who tries to keep the game as much linear as possible is a bad DM. The more options a player has the best. A good DM has to be there to help players see what each action might lead to and if they are unable to see it to try and find the best consequences of their deeds in order to keep the game under balance and at the same time interesting and FUN!!! Now about the scrolls. Do not get me wrong. The whole thing is hypothetical because it is true that a 1st lvl character will never ever get a scroll of a 9th lvl spell unless the DM is nuts and wants to make the game completely unbalanced. I just think that for a spellcaster, the being able to cast powerful spells from scrolls thing is a great deal and gives them extra power. It is not the same with fighters and swords. Because a +5 longsword can be used equally by an Elf wizard and a human fighter. Not the same with scrollsi am afraid. The use magic device skill needs quite a few ranks before being of any real benefit. What i want to say is that this game is made from people like you and me and perhaps there might be black spots and things that can be improved. (remember the jump from 3 to 3.5 edition). And that is why i began this thread and i want your opinion. Perhaps a more considerable mishap chance will make it more realistic. something like a will check against DC= CL of the scroll. PS: if a rogue using the use magic device or a wizard with a CL check they try to use a scroll unsuccesfully does not the spell vanishes from the scroll? Or they are able to use it later til they succeed or a mishap happens?
Nom 03-22-07, 10:06 PM	Huh? The scroll is more imbalancing because it's a one-shot item that only a very few characters can use and only on a successful difficult check (and thus might imbalance a single encounter if the conditions are right), while the sword can be used again and again (and thus imbalance every encounter until something is done)? A +5 longsword gives a 1st level character the offensive power of a 6th or 7th level character. A scroll with a 9th level spell might grant a slightly crippled version of a 17th level power, but it can only be used once. If a single casting of gate or miracle (for example) can completely derail your campaign (as opposed to a single adventure), then it wasn't very well set up to begin with.
Jim Johnny 03-23-07, 09:25 AM	Of course, you are right. It is the Dm's job to keep the campaign under control. Nevertheless a miracle or wish spell is always a problem when we are talking about 1st lvl characters and not only. Of course as we all said it is the Dm's fault if he gives such a spell to a 1st lvl character, unless it is for roleplaying reasons and part of the adventure. But i am talking HYPOTHETICALLY here. A sword can be used from everybody (with the prerequisite of a feat in the worst case) but the same does not counts for scrolls. Of course we should see a scroll as a magic item. They have a price (which is not small if we consider the used only once thing) and the most difficult part is the making of the scroll. The casting should be a relatively easy thing to do. I just believe that there should be a higher mishap possibility, and not the same thing for every scroll whatever the CL. I still have not heard your opinion about that. We discussed the possibility of a 1st lvl character finding such a powerful scroll which i agree is not an everyday thing and the DM is always responsible for giving such item to a character. But i wanted us to discuss if the way a scroll can be used is okay or there is room for improvements. I am looking forward in reading your ideas on the matter.