Casting Time Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting Time Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kiklio
02-19-06, 10:47 PM "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails."

"When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell."

"A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step."

If you were casting a spell which takes one or more full-round actions- for instance, a spell like raise dead- could you couple 5 foot steps with your full-round actions? Would a spell cast in this manner be "consecutive and uninterrupted"?
Rjo
02-20-06, 12:10 AM Since, on the subject of full-round actions, the SRD says:
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.and the fact that no where in the description of longer-than-1-round-casting does it explicitely say "no 5-foot steps," I would have to say that by RAW, you can take a 5-foot step each round.
SALDAR
02-20-06, 03:50 AM I would have to disagree. When casting a spell with a 1 minute casting time you use a full round action each round to continue to cast the spell, but you are not taking a full round action. What I mean is that casting such a spell is a continuous activity that requires that you use your full round action each round but you are not actually taking 10 seperate full round actions. With the 5' step, you take it before or after your full round action, not during. When casting a multiround spell, once you begin casting, it is a continuous activity until the casting is finished, not a series of actions. You are not casting a piece of the spell as a full round action in round 1 and then another piece as a seperate full round action in round 2, and so on. Such a spell has a casting time of "1 minute", not a casting time of "10 full round actions". Allowing 5' steps each round would allow a spellcaster to move 50' during the casting of a spell. If you read it as 10 seperate full round actions, then a spellcaster could utilize other "free" actions during the casting of such a spell, such as a spell with the Quicken Spell feat applied.
Nom
02-20-06, 05:56 PM Some full round actions (notably full-attack) even explicitly allow you to intersperse free actions or a 5 ft. step. I see nothing about the "cast a spell" full round action that would prevent this, as long as the free action is not one that could break concentration.
SALDAR
02-21-06, 08:24 PM Some full round actions (notably full-attack) even explicitly allow you to intersperse free actions or a 5 ft. step. I see nothing about the "cast a spell" full round action that would prevent this, as long as the free action is not one that could break concentration.
Correct, the Full-Attack full-round action explicitly states that you can take a 5' step before, after, or in between your attacks. The Cast a Spell full-round action lacks such a statement. Because it lacks said statement does not mean that it is allowed. Such explicitness is required in order to allow such things to occur. The Full-Attack full-round action states that a 5' step is allowed, so you can. The Cast a Spell full-round action does not, so you cannot.

Using such "not there" logic leads to problems. For instance, the cast a spell full-round action says nothing about casting spells while unconcious, so, using the "not there" logic, there is nothing to prevent this either.
Kyuketsukiouji
02-21-06, 08:50 PM I would allow the 5' step either before the spell is started, or after the spell is ended, but not while you're casting, since the description of casting a multiple round spell is quite clear that

These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

A 5' step would count as an "interruption".
Nom
02-21-06, 10:30 PM A 5' step would count as an "interruption".Even though explicitly listed as "not an action"? The same logic would suggest that attempting a Fort Save would automatically disrupt the spell.
jaelis
02-21-06, 11:18 PM I would allow it. As I see it, the 5 foot step is a small enough motion that you can do it without interfering with anything else going on. I would only disallow it if there were some kind of movement restriction in effect.
Kyuketsukiouji
02-22-06, 07:08 AM Even though explicitly listed as "not an action"? The same logic would suggest that attempting a Fort Save would automatically disrupt the spell.

You can make a Fort Save while you're asleep. You can't take a 5' step. So obviously, they're not exactly the same.
Mentar
02-22-06, 07:25 AM I believe it would depend on the spell.
Spells with more then 1 round casting time would require concentration checks to make your 5 foot step, but if you move more then 5 feet away from the target of a touch spell it would count as a disruption.
For spells such as Raise Dead and Reincarnate I would allow the caster to slowly move around the body while adjusting it, straightening broken limbs, or removing the clothing in the case of reincarnate (so you don't end up with a half-orc wearing a gnome's pants), and things like that.

Then again, if someone tried casting any spell with more then a 1 round casting time in combat that person would become the focus of attention for any intelligent enemies, and even a simple bull-rush could disrupt the concentration.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
02-22-06, 07:50 AM ...With the 5' step, you take it before or after your full round action, not during....

Incorrect. You can also take a 5' step during you full round action:

Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. ...

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

So yes, a 1 minute spell casting could be coupled with 10 rounds of 5' steps.
Kiklio
02-22-06, 03:05 PM Thanks for the input, guys- it's a tricky question, which is why I posed it. It's probably yet another problem caught between conflicting and ambiguous bits of RAW. But I do appreciate the advice. :D
SALDAR
02-23-06, 02:52 PM Incorrect. You can also take a 5' step during you full round action:
I was well aware of this rule before my previous posts, but it changes nothing. This is the rule applied to 5' steps in general. This question was about a Full-Round Action (Cast a Spell) and a 5' step, so the answer is not in the general rules but within the Full-Round Actions rules.

Looking at these rules to see how full-round actions and 5' steps interact we find the the Full-Attack full-round action specifically states that you can take a 5' step during this full round action. On the other hand, the Cast a Spell full-round action says nothing about taking 5' steps during this full-round action.

If the general rule you pointed out applied to all actions without exception then there would be no need to mention it within the full-attack description within the Full-Round Actions section. Since it is mentioned in one full-round action's description and not the other, then it only applies to the one in which it is mentioned.
Vedic Cold
02-23-06, 03:46 PM From the SRD: A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

Logically, this statement (which is the base definition of all full-round actions) constitutes a default condition. When a default condition exists, any other text that does not directly and explicitly contradict the default condition must be assumed to adhere to the default condition. Therefore, if the text of a given full-round action does NOT conflict with the default condition (that a 5-foot step can be taken in conjunction with a full-round action wherein no other mode of movement was involved) then one should consider the default condition to still be true. To argue that because the text of one example of a full-round action specifies the points at which the 5-foot step can be taken during THAT particular action, all other full-round actions that do not specifically state that a 5-foot step can be taken therefore inherently prohibit taking a 5-foot step is faulty logic.
SALDAR
02-26-06, 09:47 PM Normally this would be faulty logic, but in the case of casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 round it is not. I have seen nothing within the rules that allows any form of movement during the casting of a spell as doing so would interrupt spell casting.

Casting a 1 round spell requires a full round action and you can take a 5' step in the same round, but since the Cast a Spell full round action is missing the specification that you can take a 5' step during the action you can only take a 5' step before or after.

A spell with a 1 minute casting time requires the casting to be uninterrupted from round to round. The casting of such a spell is not 10 seperate full round actions, which would allow for 5' steps, but a single continuous action that lasts for 1 minute and uses your full round action for 10 consecutive rounds. A 5' step during casting would be an interruption the same as a 5' step during the casting of a 1 round spell would be an interruption. You take a 5' step before you begin casting or after you complete the casting, not during the casting. The casting time is 1 minute, not 1 round 10 times.
Nom
02-28-06, 10:59 PM A better answer would be that since the rules state that you may take a 5 ft. step "during ... your other actions in the round" and the full round actions: cast a spell rules do not explicitly negate this that the general ruling holds. Merely neglecting to remind the reader of a general ruling does not implicitly negate it.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
03-01-06, 08:36 AM If the general rule you pointed out applied to all actions without exception then there would be no need to mention it within the full-attack description within the Full-Round Actions section. Since it is mentioned in one full-round action's description and not the other, then it only applies to the one in which it is mentioned.

Vedic Cold and Nom already addressed the substance of your post so let me instead ask what the point of making general rules are if you want them mentioned in every single specific sub-section?
There are many rules that are repeated throughout the SRD/Books and they serve as reminders and helps put the rules together and makes using them a lot easier.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
03-01-06, 09:45 AM Normally this would be faulty logic, but in the case of casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 round it is not. I have seen nothing within the rules that allows any form of movement during the casting of a spell as doing so would interrupt spell casting.

It really depends on your definition of movement.
Movement using a Move action: No, there are no provision in the rules for casting full round spells while using a move action to move. (obviously of course)
5' step: You are moving, but it is not considered an action and the part I quoted before suggest that it can be done during what else you might be doing.
Movement as in being moved: Being moved by some kind of transportation such as a mount, ship, wagon etc. or extraordinarily violent motion such as by an earthquake is certainly possible while casting, albeit sometimes difficult (requires concentration check).

Casting a 1 round spell requires a full round action and you can take a 5' step in the same round, but since the Cast a Spell full round action is missing the specification that you can take a 5' step during the action you can only take a 5' step before or after.

See previous posts.

A spell with a 1 minute casting time requires the casting to be uninterrupted from round to round.

Correct, the question is then what constitutes an interruption.

The casting of such a spell is not 10 seperate full round actions, which would allow for 5' steps, but a single continuous action that lasts for 1 minute and uses your full round action for 10 consecutive rounds.

I think that making it into a single continuous action is your interpretation.
The SRD says actions in plural. That they must be consecutive does not mean that they do not follow the normal rules. Any ruling of that sort would be a house rule.

A 5' step during casting would be an interruption the same as a 5' step during the casting of a 1 round spell would be an interruption. ...

Calling a 5' step an interruption seems extreme in light of the fact that it is possible to cast during a blizzard, on the back of the horse, in an earthquake or while being slashed with swords.
Why should not it be possible to move your feet gently while speaking the right incantations and manipulating any needed components with your hands when you can do it under the above conditions?
I think that even calling for a concentration check above 0 for taking a 5' step during casting is absurd, since:

In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.
DonGnocci
03-01-06, 10:08 AM I'd say that it's possible to take the 5' step.
Because a 5ft. step is not an action itself, so why should'nt it be part of a full-round-action?
Vedic Cold
03-02-06, 11:46 AM A better answer would be that since the rules state that you may take a 5 ft. step "during ... your other actions in the round" and the full round actions: cast a spell rules do not explicitly negate this that the general ruling holds. Merely neglecting to remind the reader of a general ruling does not implicitly negate it.

I'm obviously too verbose. Nom has quite nicely said everything my previous post intended, and did it in a far more direct and concise manner. Kudos. :tiphat:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kiklio 02-19-06, 10:47 PM	"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails." "When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell." "A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step." If you were casting a spell which takes one or more full-round actions- for instance, a spell like raise dead- could you couple 5 foot steps with your full-round actions? Would a spell cast in this manner be "consecutive and uninterrupted"?
Rjo 02-20-06, 12:10 AM	Since, on the subject of full-round actions, the SRD says: Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.and the fact that no where in the description of longer-than-1-round-casting does it explicitely say "no 5-foot steps," I would have to say that by RAW, you can take a 5-foot step each round.
SALDAR 02-20-06, 03:50 AM	I would have to disagree. When casting a spell with a 1 minute casting time you use a full round action each round to continue to cast the spell, but you are not taking a full round action. What I mean is that casting such a spell is a continuous activity that requires that you use your full round action each round but you are not actually taking 10 seperate full round actions. With the 5' step, you take it before or after your full round action, not during. When casting a multiround spell, once you begin casting, it is a continuous activity until the casting is finished, not a series of actions. You are not casting a piece of the spell as a full round action in round 1 and then another piece as a seperate full round action in round 2, and so on. Such a spell has a casting time of "1 minute", not a casting time of "10 full round actions". Allowing 5' steps each round would allow a spellcaster to move 50' during the casting of a spell. If you read it as 10 seperate full round actions, then a spellcaster could utilize other "free" actions during the casting of such a spell, such as a spell with the Quicken Spell feat applied.
Nom 02-20-06, 05:56 PM	Some full round actions (notably full-attack) even explicitly allow you to intersperse free actions or a 5 ft. step. I see nothing about the "cast a spell" full round action that would prevent this, as long as the free action is not one that could break concentration.
SALDAR 02-21-06, 08:24 PM	Some full round actions (notably full-attack) even explicitly allow you to intersperse free actions or a 5 ft. step. I see nothing about the "cast a spell" full round action that would prevent this, as long as the free action is not one that could break concentration. Correct, the Full-Attack full-round action explicitly states that you can take a 5' step before, after, or in between your attacks. The Cast a Spell full-round action lacks such a statement. Because it lacks said statement does not mean that it is allowed. Such explicitness is required in order to allow such things to occur. The Full-Attack full-round action states that a 5' step is allowed, so you can. The Cast a Spell full-round action does not, so you cannot. Using such "not there" logic leads to problems. For instance, the cast a spell full-round action says nothing about casting spells while unconcious, so, using the "not there" logic, there is nothing to prevent this either.
Kyuketsukiouji 02-21-06, 08:50 PM	I would allow the 5' step either before the spell is started, or after the spell is ended, but not while you're casting, since the description of casting a multiple round spell is quite clear that These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. A 5' step would count as an "interruption".
Nom 02-21-06, 10:30 PM	A 5' step would count as an "interruption".Even though explicitly listed as "not an action"? The same logic would suggest that attempting a Fort Save would automatically disrupt the spell.
jaelis 02-21-06, 11:18 PM	I would allow it. As I see it, the 5 foot step is a small enough motion that you can do it without interfering with anything else going on. I would only disallow it if there were some kind of movement restriction in effect.
Kyuketsukiouji 02-22-06, 07:08 AM	Even though explicitly listed as "not an action"? The same logic would suggest that attempting a Fort Save would automatically disrupt the spell. You can make a Fort Save while you're asleep. You can't take a 5' step. So obviously, they're not exactly the same.
Mentar 02-22-06, 07:25 AM	I believe it would depend on the spell. Spells with more then 1 round casting time would require concentration checks to make your 5 foot step, but if you move more then 5 feet away from the target of a touch spell it would count as a disruption. For spells such as Raise Dead and Reincarnate I would allow the caster to slowly move around the body while adjusting it, straightening broken limbs, or removing the clothing in the case of reincarnate (so you don't end up with a half-orc wearing a gnome's pants), and things like that. Then again, if someone tried casting any spell with more then a 1 round casting time in combat that person would become the focus of attention for any intelligent enemies, and even a simple bull-rush could disrupt the concentration.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 02-22-06, 07:50 AM	...With the 5' step, you take it before or after your full round action, not during.... Incorrect. You can also take a 5' step during you full round action: Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. ... You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. So yes, a 1 minute spell casting could be coupled with 10 rounds of 5' steps.
Kiklio 02-22-06, 03:05 PM	Thanks for the input, guys- it's a tricky question, which is why I posed it. It's probably yet another problem caught between conflicting and ambiguous bits of RAW. But I do appreciate the advice. :D
SALDAR 02-23-06, 02:52 PM	Incorrect. You can also take a 5' step during you full round action: I was well aware of this rule before my previous posts, but it changes nothing. This is the rule applied to 5' steps in general. This question was about a Full-Round Action (Cast a Spell) and a 5' step, so the answer is not in the general rules but within the Full-Round Actions rules. Looking at these rules to see how full-round actions and 5' steps interact we find the the Full-Attack full-round action specifically states that you can take a 5' step during this full round action. On the other hand, the Cast a Spell full-round action says nothing about taking 5' steps during this full-round action. If the general rule you pointed out applied to all actions without exception then there would be no need to mention it within the full-attack description within the Full-Round Actions section. Since it is mentioned in one full-round action's description and not the other, then it only applies to the one in which it is mentioned.
Vedic Cold 02-23-06, 03:46 PM	From the SRD: A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. Logically, this statement (which is the base definition of all full-round actions) constitutes a default condition. When a default condition exists, any other text that does not directly and explicitly contradict the default condition must be assumed to adhere to the default condition. Therefore, if the text of a given full-round action does NOT conflict with the default condition (that a 5-foot step can be taken in conjunction with a full-round action wherein no other mode of movement was involved) then one should consider the default condition to still be true. To argue that because the text of one example of a full-round action specifies the points at which the 5-foot step can be taken during THAT particular action, all other full-round actions that do not specifically state that a 5-foot step can be taken therefore inherently prohibit taking a 5-foot step is faulty logic.
SALDAR 02-26-06, 09:47 PM	Normally this would be faulty logic, but in the case of casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 round it is not. I have seen nothing within the rules that allows any form of movement during the casting of a spell as doing so would interrupt spell casting. Casting a 1 round spell requires a full round action and you can take a 5' step in the same round, but since the Cast a Spell full round action is missing the specification that you can take a 5' step during the action you can only take a 5' step before or after. A spell with a 1 minute casting time requires the casting to be uninterrupted from round to round. The casting of such a spell is not 10 seperate full round actions, which would allow for 5' steps, but a single continuous action that lasts for 1 minute and uses your full round action for 10 consecutive rounds. A 5' step during casting would be an interruption the same as a 5' step during the casting of a 1 round spell would be an interruption. You take a 5' step before you begin casting or after you complete the casting, not during the casting. The casting time is 1 minute, not 1 round 10 times.
Nom 02-28-06, 10:59 PM	A better answer would be that since the rules state that you may take a 5 ft. step "during ... your other actions in the round" and the full round actions: cast a spell rules do not explicitly negate this that the general ruling holds. Merely neglecting to remind the reader of a general ruling does not implicitly negate it.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 03-01-06, 08:36 AM	If the general rule you pointed out applied to all actions without exception then there would be no need to mention it within the full-attack description within the Full-Round Actions section. Since it is mentioned in one full-round action's description and not the other, then it only applies to the one in which it is mentioned. Vedic Cold and Nom already addressed the substance of your post so let me instead ask what the point of making general rules are if you want them mentioned in every single specific sub-section? There are many rules that are repeated throughout the SRD/Books and they serve as reminders and helps put the rules together and makes using them a lot easier.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 03-01-06, 09:45 AM	Normally this would be faulty logic, but in the case of casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 round it is not. I have seen nothing within the rules that allows any form of movement during the casting of a spell as doing so would interrupt spell casting. It really depends on your definition of movement. Movement using a Move action: No, there are no provision in the rules for casting full round spells while using a move action to move. (obviously of course) 5' step: You are moving, but it is not considered an action and the part I quoted before suggest that it can be done during what else you might be doing. Movement as in being moved: Being moved by some kind of transportation such as a mount, ship, wagon etc. or extraordinarily violent motion such as by an earthquake is certainly possible while casting, albeit sometimes difficult (requires concentration check). Casting a 1 round spell requires a full round action and you can take a 5' step in the same round, but since the Cast a Spell full round action is missing the specification that you can take a 5' step during the action you can only take a 5' step before or after. See previous posts. A spell with a 1 minute casting time requires the casting to be uninterrupted from round to round. Correct, the question is then what constitutes an interruption. The casting of such a spell is not 10 seperate full round actions, which would allow for 5' steps, but a single continuous action that lasts for 1 minute and uses your full round action for 10 consecutive rounds. I think that making it into a single continuous action is your interpretation. The SRD says actions in plural. That they must be consecutive does not mean that they do not follow the normal rules. Any ruling of that sort would be a house rule. A 5' step during casting would be an interruption the same as a 5' step during the casting of a 1 round spell would be an interruption. ... Calling a 5' step an interruption seems extreme in light of the fact that it is possible to cast during a blizzard, on the back of the horse, in an earthquake or while being slashed with swords. Why should not it be possible to move your feet gently while speaking the right incantations and manipulating any needed components with your hands when you can do it under the above conditions? I think that even calling for a concentration check above 0 for taking a 5' step during casting is absurd, since: In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.
DonGnocci 03-01-06, 10:08 AM	I'd say that it's possible to take the 5' step. Because a 5ft. step is not an action itself, so why should'nt it be part of a full-round-action?
Vedic Cold 03-02-06, 11:46 AM	A better answer would be that since the rules state that you may take a 5 ft. step "during ... your other actions in the round" and the full round actions: cast a spell rules do not explicitly negate this that the general ruling holds. Merely neglecting to remind the reader of a general ruling does not implicitly negate it. I'm obviously too verbose. Nom has quite nicely said everything my previous post intended, and did it in a far more direct and concise manner. Kudos. :tiphat: