Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rixarn 12-25-04, 09:11 PM	ok, lets assume i rolled 13 in my d20 for initative, and i have a dex score of 10. Monsters have rolled 14.. Now i cast cats grace in the battle (3rd round if you want) and i have a dexterity bonus of +2. Does my place in the order of turns arises 2 up and thus, in the 4th round being me acting in the first place? (15 vs 14). And the question applies backwards too.. what happens if i insead lose dex in the middle of the combat? Thanks
DemonMonkeyBoy 12-25-04, 10:00 PM	:b: "Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions). If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other." Now it says to see Special Initiative Actions and your changing Dex score is not listed. I believe changing your dex score after initiative will not change the order. I do like the idea, but don't think it works that way.
Seeker95 12-26-04, 09:34 AM	Initiative order does not change except by delaying or readying actions.
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-26-04, 10:07 AM	Well, I don't like the idea of 'ghost' Initiative, so I'm on the side that your actions can change your Initiative order. It's a bit fuzzy to me to say that you can only effect your Initiative outside of combat, before the D20 is rolled. And saying that once your get that Initiative number you can't change it except for Ready and Delay? That does not sound right. So you could cast Cat's Grace on yourself, and even if it's displed or the duration ends, you still get the bonus(because your Initiative number has that included). And if you get hit with a Dex drain posion, your Initiative does not go down, your just as fast and quick as ever(though you lose your plus to hit and your Ac bonus). So you simply have to beable to change your Initiative number from round to round. You can't change the D20 roll, just the plus or minus to it... BT
StevenO 12-26-04, 10:19 PM	Your initiative doesn't change during combat just because you modifier does. The new modifier would apply if a new check were made but as writen init is only figured at the beginning of combat. Think of initiative as you first attack roll during combat. Changing the modifiers that affect it will not change that outcome just like increasing Str and Dex during combat wouldn't change a previously rolled attack that barely missed.
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-26-04, 11:15 PM	...........Your initiative doesn't change during combat just because you modifier does. The new modifier would apply if a new check were made but as writen init is only figured at the beginning of combat............... ...So if you had Cat's Grace cast on you just for that first round of combat, you can keep the bonus to your Initiative for the whole combat, even after the spell duration ends? Does that realy sound right? Along that same line, if your initiative number is 20, and you get hit by a Dex draining poison, though your easyer to hit and have a harder time with ranged attacks...your still just as quick and agile as ever? If you let a magic effect continue long after the spell duration runs out, the dream spell for your game would be the 0 levell esser Cat's Grace-'As per Cat's Grace, but only last for one round'. So they can cast it on the first round of every combat and get the initiative for the whole combat. And you can't realy compare it to a attack roll, you reroll that every round. Though if you let Cat's grace work well beyond it's duration, maybe you should let Bulls Strgenth do that too...you get the STR bonus as long as you are in combat...no matter the spell duration. BT
was_fired 12-27-04, 12:51 AM	Once combat gets going the initial order doesn't matter much, but being allowed to play with it can be extremely abusive. Let us say that Krunk, Gorg, and Moe are fighting. Krunk has an iniative score of 19 and Gorg has a score of 18 as does Moe (but Moe goes afte Gorg). Krunk smacks Gorg and then Gorg smacks Krunk, but Gorg's weapon has a dex effecting poison which drops Krunk's dex by 4 points. So Krunk now hits Gorg again as it is his turn. Now Moe casts Cat's Grace on Krunk so Krunk goes before Grog again and hits him once more. Now Krunk smacks Gorg again. This gets even worse when you bring shapechange into it since that lets you freely change forms once a round. Initiative isn't has fast you are to act. It is how fast you begin to act. If you allow it to shift during a battle then it is possible for a single character to get three or more attacks for every one attack a foe recieves, even if the foe had a higher initiative result.
GreenDay 12-27-04, 02:29 AM	Hi! Initiative is set when you roll it and changing your dexterity dosn't make your initiative change back. YOu can change your order with some kinds of actions like delaying but my DM says the books don't say you have to keep looking at your dexterity when combat happens.......only at the begining for initiative when it is roled. Message boards are fun when the game is going slow. C you round! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-27-04, 10:58 AM	I just can't see the Initiative number being set in stone. The idea the time stops for a character in combat, so that nothing can effect that number, just does not sound right. So as long as you have a Initiative bonus or pentaly it lasts the whole combat? Just think of the abuse..... 1.The group just needs one pair of Gloves of Dexterity. When combat starts they enter it one at a time, each puts on the gloves, gets the Dex bonus to thier Initiative, then takes the gloves off and tosses them to the next character. Sure, the DMG says you have to wear the Gloves to get the bonus, but that does not matter..because you already rolled your Initiative for the round...and it can't go down. 2.This makes Bestow Curse quite powerful. If you can curse them in the supprise round, or any time before combat realy, they are stuck with that -6 to dexterity for the whole combat round. So even when their buddy removes the curse in combat....it does not change thier Initiative. 3.The afore mentioned spell duration problem. As long as CAt's Grace is active on you during the round you roll Initiative, the Dex bonus to your Initiative lasts the whole combat..no matter how long it lasts, if if it's like an hour...you will still get that bonus, because your Initiative can never go down once rolled. Does anyone else see problems like theas? Or is everyone set on Initiative is unchangable? BT
Seeker95 12-27-04, 02:55 PM	BtR, The problems or abuses you have presented are possible *if* Initiative is not a set-in-stone order. Initiative order is determined *all at once* and then actions are determined in order so... 1. Passing the gloves. You can't pass the gloves in an effort to improve initiative order since you cannot pass the gloves until after your turn in the initiative is determined. And whomever you pass them to is already set as well. 2. Bestow Curse. It is permanent. Having it removed during combat may not be the best course of action. And if it is removed, the benefits are not diminished simply because your turn remains your turn. 3. Cat's Grace duration. The only "benefit" you are concerned about is what order you get to act in. I would be far more worried about the loss of the Grace and its effects on my armor class and reflex saves than on what order I go it. Lastly, for those crying (or speaking loudly) about Initiative being fixed... I-as-DM and even I-as-player have far more details to be worried about in any combat than the "possibility" that a 5-10% improvement in my potential initiative roll is going to change in the middle of combat, much less whether said change is going to be sufficient to actually change my order. At the start of combat, roll the dice. Add (or subtract) the modifier. Line 'em up highest to lowest. That's the order.
Nom 12-27-04, 07:21 PM	Yep, initiative is not a statistic, it is a check. You check, you get a result. You apply it. Changing Dex does not retrospectively alter a Hide check - you keep your original result unless you need to check again. Likewise, changing Dex doesn't retrospectively alter an initiative check - you keep your original result unless you need to check again (ie next combat).
happycows 12-27-04, 07:46 PM	Normally I'd use cat's grace before combat begins on a character if and only if 1) I know a combat is going to begin 2) I'm a druid (since no level 2 spell can be a cure and most 2nd level spells suck for druids anyway) or my PrC grants some spells and they all suck like cat's grace. Cat's grace is good if you know you have to fight 10 battles in an arena (that's 10 initiative checks and you might like the higher ac or to hit with a touch attack). Other than that it's crappy compared to the other spells which are good in many situations than a specific one like cat's grace ie. Hold person, charm person, cure, scorching ray, etc. cat's grace might be nice to help the team make balence checks 2000 ft in the air on a plank... but when does that happen and would you have enough cat's grace to go around anyway? Will it even matter? Cat's grace is a crap spell, plan better spells. If you're a transmuter it might be the best spell compared to others. cat's grace would be :censored: if it changed your initiative in the middle of combat... quicken cat's grace fireball! yay i get to go again. Fireball maximize.
was_fired 12-28-04, 12:38 AM	Happy I have no idea what your talking about. Cat's grace is just as good as any of the other basic buffs. If you don't have dex boosting items (which non-archers tend to get last) it means you get a +2 to AC (unless armor doesn't permit it), +2 to your ranged attack rolls, and +2 to your reflex saves. The reason it isn't cast in battle by many is that once in battle damage tends to mean more. For purposes of AC though cat's grace is best core second level spell for clerics.