Cave Troll + Polymorph [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cave Troll + Polymorph [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mecra
10-12-04, 10:31 PM Has anyone seen the Cave Troll from MM 3?

For a 9 HD creature, that thing is INSANE! I can't think of a better creature to polymorph into if you are a caster.. since you can cast while in that form since you can speak.

And oh the abilities of that monster... and oh the stats!

Anyone else giggle like an evil little school girl? ;)
JustKim
10-13-04, 03:23 AM Good lord. This is why I don't like polymorph, it can only ever be balanced in hindsight.
Mecra
10-13-04, 04:48 AM Good lord. This is why I don't like polymorph, it can only ever be balanced in hindsight.

that and a full headed hydra. Makes the fighters in the group kinda worthless.
Will Brandiman
10-13-04, 04:57 AM Not seen Cave Troll yet (MM3 still on order) but the Firbolg (from either MM2 or FF, I forget) is pretty awesome. It's stronger than virtually any giant for some reason.
Mecra
10-13-04, 05:19 AM Not seen Cave Troll yet (MM3 still on order) but the Firbolg (from either MM2 or FF, I forget) is pretty awesome. It's stronger than virtually any giant for some reason.

the Cave Troll will blow you away.
Will Brandiman
10-13-04, 05:29 AM As I'm the only one of our group with MM3 (or I will be by the end of the week) then I reckon I can spring a nasty surprise the next time I DM. :cool:
ShinQuickMan
10-13-04, 08:30 AM that and a full headed hydra. Makes the fighters in the group kinda worthless.

If you're talking about polymorphing into a hydra, then it's not worth. You'll need 5-12 heads to benefit becoming a hydra (which not many other creatures besides hydras have).

But if you're talking about a hydra in general, then I guess owning one would make the group's fighter pretty useless.
Mecra
10-13-04, 10:06 AM If you're talking about polymorphing into a hydra, then it's not worth. You'll need 5-12 heads to benefit becoming a hydra (which not many other creatures besides hydras have).

But if you're talking about a hydra in general, then I guess owning one would make the group's fighter pretty useless.

??? I'm not sure what you are meaning here. When you are finally able to get the spell Polymorph you should already be able to get a few heads and since they all attack at the best BaB you can dish out more attacks than the fighter.

Owning a hydra would also be pretty nasty. o_O I'm an 10th level psion that combined with overchannel, can achieve all 12 heads.

With all the stuff casters can do, it wouldn't be tough to buff yourself beyond a normal hydra even.
robertliguori
10-13-04, 11:02 AM ??? I'm not sure what you are meaning here. When you are finally able to get the spell Polymorph you should already be able to get a few heads and since they all attack at the best BaB you can dish out more attacks than the fighter.

Owning a hydra would also be pretty nasty. o_O I'm an 10th level psion that combined with overchannel, can achieve all 12 heads.

With all the stuff casters can do, it wouldn't be tough to buff yourself beyond a normal hydra even.
Polymorph caps both with C/ML and HD. You need to be both Caster Level 12 and Character Level twelve to polymorph into a 12-HD thingy.
I believe he is referring to a line in Alter Self, which states that "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal."
A.) Heads aren't limbs.
B.) It's normal for hydras to make X attacks, where X is their HD.
redraven
10-13-04, 11:34 AM This has been covered many, many times. You do get the natural attacks of the creatures you polymorph into, which would include the 12 Hyrda head attacks. Just look at the Rules of the Game: Polymorph article:

Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them.

Then look at the example that Skip provides:

Anlion (Lizardfolk Form): Male half-elf sorcerer 4; CR 4; Medium humanoid (half-elf, reptilian); HD 4d4; hp 10; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +2; Grp +1; Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, claw) or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); Full Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, 2 claws) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); SQ half-elf traits, hold breath, low-light vision; AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5; Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16.

A sorcerer with a BAB of +2 getting three attacks a round after using Alter Self. The problem with polymorphing into a Hydra is that you still have your pitiful HP and bad BAB. But if 12 attacks are all you care about...

-Red Raven
Mecra
10-13-04, 01:26 PM This has been covered many, many times. You do get the natural attacks of the creatures you polymorph into, which would include the 12 Hyrda head attacks. Just look at the Rules of the Game: Polymorph article:

A sorcerer with a BAB of +2 getting three attacks a round after using Alter Self. The problem with polymorphing into a Hydra is that you still have your pitiful HP and bad BAB. But if 12 attacks are all you care about...

-Red Raven

Pitiful HP? A con of 20 is pitiful? That's 5 extra HP per HD of the wizard! Anything above the normal stat line for a wizard is a good thing. Plus, you don't get the BaB of a Hydra, but keep your own with using the Hydra's strength mod correct? That can go as high as +6 so I wouldn't call it pathetic because that is usually WAY more than a Sorcerer has. Yes, it isn't the best when compared to the Fighter, but you have 12 attacks were he has 3-4 maybe?

Anyway, the point of this thread isn't to discuss the Hydra, but to point out how godly the Cave Troll is from MM3. It has very high STR, and probably the highest CON of any 9 HD creature in the game. Plus it has Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, Pounce, and Stunning Attack. :eek: Plus you can still cast spells because it can speak! Plus, if you hit with everything, you can get about 12D6 worth of damage! (not including STR mod)

Purely a hideous combo for the lowly wizard and polymorph.
amoeba
10-13-04, 01:32 PM yes its been gone over before, the more books come out, the better polymorph becomes.

The problem is not the cave troll. its the polymorph spell itself.

physically strong monsters are often balanced by making their mental stats deficient (low will save, low int, etc....) but this disadvantage is completely mitigated by polymorph.
Iku Rex
10-13-04, 02:03 PM Anyone else giggle like an evil little school girl? ;)Nope. I was too busy laughing maniacally after seeing the War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). :D
fistanthius
10-13-04, 03:01 PM I've always liked polymorphing into a wyvern. 6 attacks with a 2d6 con damage poison.

That wartroll looks scary though.
Mecra
10-13-04, 03:15 PM Nope. I was too busy laughing maniacally after seeing the War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). :D

While the stats on the Wartroll are very nice, it still pales in comparison to the Cave Troll's combat feats. (Rending alone gives 4D6 extra damage!) So, stats-wise the War is better, but feat-wise the Cave is better.
amoeba
10-13-04, 03:27 PM The biggest advantage of the Trolls are that they are humanoid form thus allowing all your magical equipment to resize and still function.
redraven
10-13-04, 04:23 PM Pitiful HP? A con of 20 is pitiful? That's 5 extra HP per HD of the wizard! Anything above the normal stat line for a wizard is a good thing [ect].
Right, but the comparison was towards the Fighter (who is likely to have a comparable Con mod). The extra attacks and reach probably puts the wizard over the top, but I mentioned the HP and BAB issue merely as a reminder that the wizard isn't necessarily going to completely dominate the Fighter. Attack +21 vs. +12, HP 12d12+60 vs. 12d4+60, AC 30 vs. 22, ect.

But, yeah, the Cave Troll is rather ridiculous as a Polymorph target.

-Red Raven
amoeba
10-13-04, 04:46 PM most fighters don't have con 20 at level 9.

con 16 if they are lucky, con 18 if they are lucky and a dwarf.
Iku Rex
10-13-04, 05:09 PM (Nitpick: It's not "combat feats", it's "natural weapons", "attack routines" and "extraordinary special attacks".)

While the stats on the Wartroll are very nice, it still pales in comparison to the Cave Troll's combat feats. (Rending alone gives 4D6 extra damage!) So, stats-wise the War is better, but feat-wise the Cave is better.Bah.

The war troll has a +5 AC advantage on the cave troll. If that doesn't work out to at least half the average damage taken for the "war troll wizard", he's doing something wrong.

Also, depending on natural attacks makes you extremely vulnerable to damage reduction - not only is it harder to get through DR, but your attacks do less damage per hit when you can't.

Finally, natural attacks become less valuable as the wizard gains more attacks from his BAB (or casts tenser's transformation or divine power).
Mecra
10-13-04, 05:41 PM (Nitpick: It's not "combat feats", it's "natural weapons", "attack routines" and "extraordinary special attacks".)

Bah.

The war troll has a +5 AC advantage on the cave troll. If that doesn't work out to at least half the average damage taken for the "war troll wizard", he's doing something wrong.

Also, depending on natural attacks makes you extremely vulnerable to damage reduction - not only is it harder to get through DR, but your attacks do less damage per hit when you can't.

Finally, natural attacks become less valuable as the wizard gains more attacks from his BAB (or casts tenser's transformation or divine power).

Oh I see. So you're looking at the War Troll as more of a stat booster for casting spells and such as opposed to the Cave Troll which would be better for melee?

My main character is a VoP Psion who mainly fights using Constructs and Metamorphing into creatures. The Cave Troll is better for me since I get enchantment bonuses to my natural weapons using the VoP. However, if I wanted a platform to launch powers from (like energy ray) then yes the War Troll is better just because of stats.

However, our group is seriously lacking a good melee character so I've been nominated to fill that role with my constructs and creature forms so that's why I like the Cave more. The sheer amount of damage that thing can put out rivals anything at that level plus the added HP doesn't hurt at all either. :D But for standing and shooting, you can't beat a 29 CON! :eek:
RaspK FOG
10-13-04, 06:14 PM Actually, you don't recalculate your hp for a higher Constitution score when it is granted by change of form; the spell functions almost exactly as Alter Self (like usual, when there is no reference to any change after beign a copy of something, it is assumed to work the same way). Alter Self says in the second paragraph that "You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same."

Now, since polymorph says that your physical ability scores change while you keep your mental ability scores but says nothing of the rest, you keep every other aspect the same; just like with BAB.
Iku Rex
10-13-04, 06:37 PM Actually, you don't recalculate your hp for a higher Constitution score when it is granted by change of form; You're right based on the RAW. (This is confirmed in the DMG [errata], and by an example in Complete Warrior.)

However, Skip Williams has ruled that "unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."-- Rules of the Game - Polymorphing (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) .

I guess he figured polymorph needed a solid power-up, to go with draconic polymorph and the MM3 super-trolls.
Iku Rex
10-13-04, 06:55 PM Oh I see. So you're looking at the War Troll as more of a stat booster for casting spells and such as opposed to the Cave Troll which would be better for melee?:Not really.

(What made you think that?)
My main character is a VoP Psion who mainly fights using Constructs and Metamorphing into creatures. The Cave Troll is better for me since I get enchantment bonuses to my natural weapons using the VoP. However, if I wanted a platform to launch powers from (like energy ray) then yes the War Troll is better just because of stats.I suppose the cave troll might be better for you, but in most cases the war troll will be better for the polymorphing melee-based spellcaster. Those extra 5 points of AC alone should push a well-designed character into "opponent can only hit on natural 20" territory.
Mecra
10-14-04, 12:29 AM Not really.

(What made you think that?)
I suppose the cave troll might be better for you, but in most cases the war troll will be better for the polymorphing melee-based spellcaster. Those extra 5 points of AC alone should push a well-designed character into "opponent can only hit on natural 20" territory.

The AC boost is nice, but it's something that I don't really count on. Most decent damage spells don't really care what your AC is because they are either AoE or ranged touch.

I don't know... I just like the Cave Troll more as I believe it is more versatile. Need to take down a Wizard? Pounce + Improved Grab is a nice thing indeed.
Need to dish out damage? Pounce + all attacks + Rend is really hard to beat.

*shrug* The Wartroll is a stat creature. The Cave Troll is a melee creature. If I'm truly worried about melee and that +5 AC, I'll send a blocking construct after the fighter that wants a piece of me. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mecra 10-12-04, 10:31 PM	Has anyone seen the Cave Troll from MM 3? For a 9 HD creature, that thing is INSANE! I can't think of a better creature to polymorph into if you are a caster.. since you can cast while in that form since you can speak. And oh the abilities of that monster... and oh the stats! Anyone else giggle like an evil little school girl? ;)
JustKim 10-13-04, 03:23 AM	Good lord. This is why I don't like polymorph, it can only ever be balanced in hindsight.
Mecra 10-13-04, 04:48 AM	Good lord. This is why I don't like polymorph, it can only ever be balanced in hindsight. that and a full headed hydra. Makes the fighters in the group kinda worthless.
Will Brandiman 10-13-04, 04:57 AM	Not seen Cave Troll yet (MM3 still on order) but the Firbolg (from either MM2 or FF, I forget) is pretty awesome. It's stronger than virtually any giant for some reason.
Mecra 10-13-04, 05:19 AM	Not seen Cave Troll yet (MM3 still on order) but the Firbolg (from either MM2 or FF, I forget) is pretty awesome. It's stronger than virtually any giant for some reason. the Cave Troll will blow you away.
Will Brandiman 10-13-04, 05:29 AM	As I'm the only one of our group with MM3 (or I will be by the end of the week) then I reckon I can spring a nasty surprise the next time I DM. :cool:
ShinQuickMan 10-13-04, 08:30 AM	that and a full headed hydra. Makes the fighters in the group kinda worthless. If you're talking about polymorphing into a hydra, then it's not worth. You'll need 5-12 heads to benefit becoming a hydra (which not many other creatures besides hydras have). But if you're talking about a hydra in general, then I guess owning one would make the group's fighter pretty useless.
Mecra 10-13-04, 10:06 AM	If you're talking about polymorphing into a hydra, then it's not worth. You'll need 5-12 heads to benefit becoming a hydra (which not many other creatures besides hydras have). But if you're talking about a hydra in general, then I guess owning one would make the group's fighter pretty useless. ??? I'm not sure what you are meaning here. When you are finally able to get the spell Polymorph you should already be able to get a few heads and since they all attack at the best BaB you can dish out more attacks than the fighter. Owning a hydra would also be pretty nasty. o_O I'm an 10th level psion that combined with overchannel, can achieve all 12 heads. With all the stuff casters can do, it wouldn't be tough to buff yourself beyond a normal hydra even.
robertliguori 10-13-04, 11:02 AM	??? I'm not sure what you are meaning here. When you are finally able to get the spell Polymorph you should already be able to get a few heads and since they all attack at the best BaB you can dish out more attacks than the fighter. Owning a hydra would also be pretty nasty. o_O I'm an 10th level psion that combined with overchannel, can achieve all 12 heads. With all the stuff casters can do, it wouldn't be tough to buff yourself beyond a normal hydra even. Polymorph caps both with C/ML and HD. You need to be both Caster Level 12 and Character Level twelve to polymorph into a 12-HD thingy. I believe he is referring to a line in Alter Self, which states that "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." A.) Heads aren't limbs. B.) It's normal for hydras to make X attacks, where X is their HD.
redraven 10-13-04, 11:34 AM	This has been covered many, many times. You do get the natural attacks of the creatures you polymorph into, which would include the 12 Hyrda head attacks. Just look at the Rules of the Game: Polymorph article: Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them. Then look at the example that Skip provides: Anlion (Lizardfolk Form): Male half-elf sorcerer 4; CR 4; Medium humanoid (half-elf, reptilian); HD 4d4; hp 10; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +2; Grp +1; Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, claw) or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); Full Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, 2 claws) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +1 melee (1d6-1, quarterstaff) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite), or +5 ranged (1d8/19-20, masterwork light crossbow); SQ half-elf traits, hold breath, low-light vision; AL N; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5; Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16. A sorcerer with a BAB of +2 getting three attacks a round after using Alter Self. The problem with polymorphing into a Hydra is that you still have your pitiful HP and bad BAB. But if 12 attacks are all you care about... -Red Raven
Mecra 10-13-04, 01:26 PM	This has been covered many, many times. You do get the natural attacks of the creatures you polymorph into, which would include the 12 Hyrda head attacks. Just look at the Rules of the Game: Polymorph article: A sorcerer with a BAB of +2 getting three attacks a round after using Alter Self. The problem with polymorphing into a Hydra is that you still have your pitiful HP and bad BAB. But if 12 attacks are all you care about... -Red Raven Pitiful HP? A con of 20 is pitiful? That's 5 extra HP per HD of the wizard! Anything above the normal stat line for a wizard is a good thing. Plus, you don't get the BaB of a Hydra, but keep your own with using the Hydra's strength mod correct? That can go as high as +6 so I wouldn't call it pathetic because that is usually WAY more than a Sorcerer has. Yes, it isn't the best when compared to the Fighter, but you have 12 attacks were he has 3-4 maybe? Anyway, the point of this thread isn't to discuss the Hydra, but to point out how godly the Cave Troll is from MM3. It has very high STR, and probably the highest CON of any 9 HD creature in the game. Plus it has Rake, Rend, Improved Grab, Pounce, and Stunning Attack. :eek: Plus you can still cast spells because it can speak! Plus, if you hit with everything, you can get about 12D6 worth of damage! (not including STR mod) Purely a hideous combo for the lowly wizard and polymorph.
amoeba 10-13-04, 01:32 PM	yes its been gone over before, the more books come out, the better polymorph becomes. The problem is not the cave troll. its the polymorph spell itself. physically strong monsters are often balanced by making their mental stats deficient (low will save, low int, etc....) but this disadvantage is completely mitigated by polymorph.
Iku Rex 10-13-04, 02:03 PM	Anyone else giggle like an evil little school girl? ;)Nope. I was too busy laughing maniacally after seeing the War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). :D
fistanthius 10-13-04, 03:01 PM	I've always liked polymorphing into a wyvern. 6 attacks with a 2d6 con damage poison. That wartroll looks scary though.
Mecra 10-13-04, 03:15 PM	Nope. I was too busy laughing maniacally after seeing the War Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6). :D While the stats on the Wartroll are very nice, it still pales in comparison to the Cave Troll's combat feats. (Rending alone gives 4D6 extra damage!) So, stats-wise the War is better, but feat-wise the Cave is better.
amoeba 10-13-04, 03:27 PM	The biggest advantage of the Trolls are that they are humanoid form thus allowing all your magical equipment to resize and still function.
redraven 10-13-04, 04:23 PM	Pitiful HP? A con of 20 is pitiful? That's 5 extra HP per HD of the wizard! Anything above the normal stat line for a wizard is a good thing [ect]. Right, but the comparison was towards the Fighter (who is likely to have a comparable Con mod). The extra attacks and reach probably puts the wizard over the top, but I mentioned the HP and BAB issue merely as a reminder that the wizard isn't necessarily going to completely dominate the Fighter. Attack +21 vs. +12, HP 12d12+60 vs. 12d4+60, AC 30 vs. 22, ect. But, yeah, the Cave Troll is rather ridiculous as a Polymorph target. -Red Raven
amoeba 10-13-04, 04:46 PM	most fighters don't have con 20 at level 9. con 16 if they are lucky, con 18 if they are lucky and a dwarf.
Iku Rex 10-13-04, 05:09 PM	(Nitpick: It's not "combat feats", it's "natural weapons", "attack routines" and "extraordinary special attacks".) While the stats on the Wartroll are very nice, it still pales in comparison to the Cave Troll's combat feats. (Rending alone gives 4D6 extra damage!) So, stats-wise the War is better, but feat-wise the Cave is better.Bah. The war troll has a +5 AC advantage on the cave troll. If that doesn't work out to at least half the average damage taken for the "war troll wizard", he's doing something wrong. Also, depending on natural attacks makes you extremely vulnerable to damage reduction - not only is it harder to get through DR, but your attacks do less damage per hit when you can't. Finally, natural attacks become less valuable as the wizard gains more attacks from his BAB (or casts tenser's transformation or divine power).
Mecra 10-13-04, 05:41 PM	(Nitpick: It's not "combat feats", it's "natural weapons", "attack routines" and "extraordinary special attacks".) Bah. The war troll has a +5 AC advantage on the cave troll. If that doesn't work out to at least half the average damage taken for the "war troll wizard", he's doing something wrong. Also, depending on natural attacks makes you extremely vulnerable to damage reduction - not only is it harder to get through DR, but your attacks do less damage per hit when you can't. Finally, natural attacks become less valuable as the wizard gains more attacks from his BAB (or casts tenser's transformation or divine power). Oh I see. So you're looking at the War Troll as more of a stat booster for casting spells and such as opposed to the Cave Troll which would be better for melee? My main character is a VoP Psion who mainly fights using Constructs and Metamorphing into creatures. The Cave Troll is better for me since I get enchantment bonuses to my natural weapons using the VoP. However, if I wanted a platform to launch powers from (like energy ray) then yes the War Troll is better just because of stats. However, our group is seriously lacking a good melee character so I've been nominated to fill that role with my constructs and creature forms so that's why I like the Cave more. The sheer amount of damage that thing can put out rivals anything at that level plus the added HP doesn't hurt at all either. :D But for standing and shooting, you can't beat a 29 CON! :eek:
RaspK FOG 10-13-04, 06:14 PM	Actually, you don't recalculate your hp for a higher Constitution score when it is granted by change of form; the spell functions almost exactly as Alter Self (like usual, when there is no reference to any change after beign a copy of something, it is assumed to work the same way). Alter Self says in the second paragraph that "You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same." Now, since polymorph says that your physical ability scores change while you keep your mental ability scores but says nothing of the rest, you keep every other aspect the same; just like with BAB.
Iku Rex 10-13-04, 06:37 PM	Actually, you don't recalculate your hp for a higher Constitution score when it is granted by change of form; You're right based on the RAW. (This is confirmed in the DMG [errata], and by an example in Complete Warrior.) However, Skip Williams has ruled that "unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."-- Rules of the Game - Polymorphing (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a) . I guess he figured polymorph needed a solid power-up, to go with draconic polymorph and the MM3 super-trolls.
Iku Rex 10-13-04, 06:55 PM	Oh I see. So you're looking at the War Troll as more of a stat booster for casting spells and such as opposed to the Cave Troll which would be better for melee?:Not really. (What made you think that?) My main character is a VoP Psion who mainly fights using Constructs and Metamorphing into creatures. The Cave Troll is better for me since I get enchantment bonuses to my natural weapons using the VoP. However, if I wanted a platform to launch powers from (like energy ray) then yes the War Troll is better just because of stats.I suppose the cave troll might be better for you, but in most cases the war troll will be better for the polymorphing melee-based spellcaster. Those extra 5 points of AC alone should push a well-designed character into "opponent can only hit on natural 20" territory.
Mecra 10-14-04, 12:29 AM	Not really. (What made you think that?) I suppose the cave troll might be better for you, but in most cases the war troll will be better for the polymorphing melee-based spellcaster. Those extra 5 points of AC alone should push a well-designed character into "opponent can only hit on natural 20" territory. The AC boost is nice, but it's something that I don't really count on. Most decent damage spells don't really care what your AC is because they are either AoE or ranged touch. I don't know... I just like the Cave Troll more as I believe it is more versatile. Need to take down a Wizard? Pounce + Improved Grab is a nice thing indeed. Need to dish out damage? Pounce + all attacks + Rend is really hard to beat. shrug The Wartroll is a stat creature. The Cave Troll is a melee creature. If I'm truly worried about melee and that +5 AC, I'll send a blocking construct after the fighter that wants a piece of me. :)