Chain Spell a Ray (Customer Support answer) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Chain Spell a Ray (Customer Support answer) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Man-Rata
05-09-07, 02:26 PM Had a thread about this earlier, but due to the search function being offline I can't find it.

I asked Customer Support, and they say:

Yes, you can Chain Spell a Ray.

Also asked to be sure:

Yes, you can Persist a Chained Spell as long as you can fulfill the spell slot requirements and the range is greater that touch.

Just wanted to let people know of the ruling :)
tarkin
05-09-07, 02:29 PM Customer Support is known for giving some really bad and stupid answers.

Read Chain Spell. See the words single "TARGET".

Now look at Ray spells. See the word EFFECT where Target should be?

If Customer Support does not at least address this issue, don't expect people to believe them.

They have been wrong too many times before
Zherog
05-09-07, 05:45 PM Can you post the exact question you asked, and the exact wording you received?

Along with being wrong a lot (as Tarkin mentions), Customer Service is also notorious for allowing the question asker to "lead" them to a particular answer.
Osedox
05-09-07, 06:42 PM CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that.
CantripN
05-09-07, 07:09 PM CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that.

Chained, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblment: 6th level slot, 9-16 STR penalty to at least 11 targets, no save.

Chained Scorching Ray: 5th level slot, 12d6 to at least 7 targets, no save.

And that's just the PHB.
Okay, it's not that bad, but it's really more of a problem for classes that can get it for free, like the UM...
Pandaemoni
05-09-07, 08:05 PM Chained, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblment: 6th level slot, 9-16 STR penalty to at least 11 targets, no save.

Chained Scorching Ray: 5th level slot, 12d6 to at least 7 targets, no save.

And that's just the PHB.
Okay, it's not that bad, but it's really more of a problem for classes that can get it for free, like the UM...

You may be misreading the Chain Spell feat.

Chain Spell (i) only does half damage to secondary targets and (ii) specifically grants a save to secondary targets (to halve even that damage), whether the original spell had one or not. For spells that do not do damage (and hence have a saving throw) the DC is reduced by 4 for all secondary targets.

The feat description doesn't say "only spells that have a "Target" entry in the spell description", but rather "spells that specify a single target...." Since Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray do indeed clearly specify a single target is affected, I'm not sure that the absence of a "Target" entry is intended to exclude them.
CantripN
05-09-07, 08:08 PM You may be misreading the Chain Spell feat.

You're right, sorry. The Ray of Enfeeblement isn't damage, though. You're correct about the Scorching Ray...

That's what you get when you post at 2 am.... :embarrass

My point still stands about spells with no save and no damage. Plenty of rays are like that, such as the aforementioned ROE.
Mindolin
05-09-07, 09:28 PM Despite being ability damage, it's still damage, and thus still affected.
Man-Rata
05-09-07, 09:35 PM Can you post the exact question you asked, and the exact wording you received?

Along with being wrong a lot (as Tarkin mentions), Customer Service is also notorious for allowing the question asker to "lead" them to a particular answer.

Yep here was my questions:

1. Can you Chain Spell a Ray spell?

2. Can you Persist a spell modified by Chain Spell (By borrowing with Residual metamagic), the spell would still only have 1 target, the spell just happens to arc out and hit other targets.

3. What happens if you use both Extend and Persist Metamagic on the same spell, say Shield. Does it get duration 48 hours or 24 hours and CL/rounds?

4. Under Persistent Spell it says you can only use it on spells with Range Personal or fixed range. What exactly is fixed range? is 25 + 5/2 levels fixed for that level?

And here was the answers:

---

Thank you for writing back.

1. Yes, you can Chain Spell a Ray.

2. Yes, you can Persist a Chained Spell as long as you can fulfill the spell slot requirements and the range is greater that touch.

3. A Persistent Extended spell will have a duration of 48 hours.

4. Fixed range is referring to a spell that has a range that does not change with level.

Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Rob
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

---

Don't really think you can say I was leading him with those questions.

And I must say, eventhough Customer Support might make mistakes, usually what they say should be the standing rule, since they, or the company they work for, make the books and write the FAQs and Erratas.
Man-Rata
05-09-07, 09:38 PM Despite being ability damage, it's still damage, and thus still affected.

Actually Ray of enfeeblement is a Strength Penalty, so it's doesnt stack, and BTW an empowered RoE deals (1d6 x 1,5) +5, the +5 do not get empowered, so it's 6 to 14 Strength Penalty.
TygerTyger
05-09-07, 10:25 PM Actually Ray of enfeeblement is a Strength Penalty, so it's doesnt stack, and BTW an empowered RoE deals (1d6 x 1,5) +5, the +5 do not get empowered, so it's 6 to 14 Strength Penalty.

While its not the overall point here, the +5 does indeed get empowered. Read the feat description, wherein it specifically gives the example of Magic Missile, and empowers the +1 per missile.
Osedox
05-10-07, 12:26 AM Chained Enervation would be nasty
penchant
05-10-07, 02:34 AM I'm glad this came up. I've been saying this for a while now. Chain Disintegrates for everyone!
Deep Blue 9000
05-10-07, 03:50 AM CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that.

Its a rules concern, not a balance concern. Chained Ray of Enfeeblement, Dizziness, Stupidity, Enervate, Disintegrate or whatever don't strike me as any more broken than the original spells. Just don't forget they all have to be within 30' of the primary target and you've gotta hit each one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Man-Rata 05-09-07, 02:26 PM	Had a thread about this earlier, but due to the search function being offline I can't find it. I asked Customer Support, and they say: Yes, you can Chain Spell a Ray. Also asked to be sure: Yes, you can Persist a Chained Spell as long as you can fulfill the spell slot requirements and the range is greater that touch. Just wanted to let people know of the ruling :)
tarkin 05-09-07, 02:29 PM	Customer Support is known for giving some really bad and stupid answers. Read Chain Spell. See the words single "TARGET". Now look at Ray spells. See the word EFFECT where Target should be? If Customer Support does not at least address this issue, don't expect people to believe them. They have been wrong too many times before
Zherog 05-09-07, 05:45 PM	Can you post the exact question you asked, and the exact wording you received? Along with being wrong a lot (as Tarkin mentions), Customer Service is also notorious for allowing the question asker to "lead" them to a particular answer.
Osedox 05-09-07, 06:42 PM	CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that.
CantripN 05-09-07, 07:09 PM	CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that. Chained, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblment: 6th level slot, 9-16 STR penalty to at least 11 targets, no save. Chained Scorching Ray: 5th level slot, 12d6 to at least 7 targets, no save. And that's just the PHB. Okay, it's not that bad, but it's really more of a problem for classes that can get it for free, like the UM...
Pandaemoni 05-09-07, 08:05 PM	Chained, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblment: 6th level slot, 9-16 STR penalty to at least 11 targets, no save. Chained Scorching Ray: 5th level slot, 12d6 to at least 7 targets, no save. And that's just the PHB. Okay, it's not that bad, but it's really more of a problem for classes that can get it for free, like the UM... You may be misreading the Chain Spell feat. Chain Spell (i) only does half damage to secondary targets and (ii) specifically grants a save to secondary targets (to halve even that damage), whether the original spell had one or not. For spells that do not do damage (and hence have a saving throw) the DC is reduced by 4 for all secondary targets. The feat description doesn't say "only spells that have a "Target" entry in the spell description", but rather "spells that specify a single target...." Since Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray do indeed clearly specify a single target is affected, I'm not sure that the absence of a "Target" entry is intended to exclude them.
CantripN 05-09-07, 08:08 PM	You may be misreading the Chain Spell feat. You're right, sorry. The Ray of Enfeeblement isn't damage, though. You're correct about the Scorching Ray... That's what you get when you post at 2 am.... :embarrass My point still stands about spells with no save and no damage. Plenty of rays are like that, such as the aforementioned ROE.
Mindolin 05-09-07, 09:28 PM	Despite being ability damage, it's still damage, and thus still affected.
Man-Rata 05-09-07, 09:35 PM	Can you post the exact question you asked, and the exact wording you received? Along with being wrong a lot (as Tarkin mentions), Customer Service is also notorious for allowing the question asker to "lead" them to a particular answer. Yep here was my questions: 1. Can you Chain Spell a Ray spell? 2. Can you Persist a spell modified by Chain Spell (By borrowing with Residual metamagic), the spell would still only have 1 target, the spell just happens to arc out and hit other targets. 3. What happens if you use both Extend and Persist Metamagic on the same spell, say Shield. Does it get duration 48 hours or 24 hours and CL/rounds? 4. Under Persistent Spell it says you can only use it on spells with Range Personal or fixed range. What exactly is fixed range? is 25 + 5/2 levels fixed for that level? And here was the answers: --- Thank you for writing back. 1. Yes, you can Chain Spell a Ray. 2. Yes, you can Persist a Chained Spell as long as you can fulfill the spell slot requirements and the range is greater that touch. 3. A Persistent Extended spell will have a duration of 48 hours. 4. Fixed range is referring to a spell that has a range that does not change with level. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST --- Don't really think you can say I was leading him with those questions. And I must say, eventhough Customer Support might make mistakes, usually what they say should be the standing rule, since they, or the company they work for, make the books and write the FAQs and Erratas.
Man-Rata 05-09-07, 09:38 PM	Despite being ability damage, it's still damage, and thus still affected. Actually Ray of enfeeblement is a Strength Penalty, so it's doesnt stack, and BTW an empowered RoE deals (1d6 x 1,5) +5, the +5 do not get empowered, so it's 6 to 14 Strength Penalty.
TygerTyger 05-09-07, 10:25 PM	Actually Ray of enfeeblement is a Strength Penalty, so it's doesnt stack, and BTW an empowered RoE deals (1d6 x 1,5) +5, the +5 do not get empowered, so it's 6 to 14 Strength Penalty. While its not the overall point here, the +5 does indeed get empowered. Read the feat description, wherein it specifically gives the example of Magic Missile, and empowers the +1 per missile.
Osedox 05-10-07, 12:26 AM	Chained Enervation would be nasty
penchant 05-10-07, 02:34 AM	I'm glad this came up. I've been saying this for a while now. Chain Disintegrates for everyone!
Deep Blue 9000 05-10-07, 03:50 AM	CutServ shenanigans aside, Would there honestly be a problem with allowing it? The worst abuse I can see is possibly Disintegrate, but thats a ninth level slot were talking about, and im sure we can do better than that. Its a rules concern, not a balance concern. Chained Ray of Enfeeblement, Dizziness, Stupidity, Enervate, Disintegrate or whatever don't strike me as any more broken than the original spells. Just don't forget they all have to be within 30' of the primary target and you've gotta hit each one.