changing feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

changing feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lycanthrope King
07-31-04, 03:25 PM Would a limited wish be able to change your feats to something else, or would that require a wish spell?
polsemager
07-31-04, 04:15 PM I'm not sure I'd allow a wish spell to do that actually.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-31-04, 07:06 PM If you chose a feat that you don't want anymore, you're just plain stupid.

There is no spell that changes feats, so you can't.

If I did allow this, it would involve something along the lines of the 2e Paladin process of fulfilling a quest which you wouldn't gain any XP for.
neroaster
07-31-04, 07:22 PM Hmm

I would say yes, because;

a wish cost you 5000 xp, you can translate 5000 xp into
25000 gold, for 25000 you can buy a magic item that usually duplicate a feat... (if I am not mistaken a ring of evation costs 25000) AND you also loose a feat in this process (compared to getting an extra feat with a magic item)
Sildatorak
07-31-04, 07:36 PM Originally posted by Thomar of Uointer
If you chose a feat that you don't want anymore, you're just plain stupid.

Or maybe you're inexperienced or didn't take 5 hours to figure out your entire progression to level 20 and thought something was going to be better than it turned out to be.

Back to the wish question. I think that if you use a wish you could switch a feat, but remember that if you get rid of a feat that is a prereq for another feat you'll lose access to that feat, or if you need it for a PrC you'll lose everything except the weapon and armor proficiencies, BAB, and base saving throws.
Seeker95
07-31-04, 08:12 PM I would not allow a wish to change a feat. I would probably allow a wish to generate an item that could duplicate a feat, but even then, only if said Feat can be duplicated by spells or existing items.

Pick your Feats wisely.
Frostbite_Ravenheart
07-31-04, 08:47 PM Feats are somthing very special. Just beacuse most fighters have "Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave" Doesn't mean its an easy ability.

The ability to cleave is a legendary action within itself and those that master it become famous. Those low-level adventurers are still considered pretty strong and you have to relize when they are criticted they are looked down apon as people "still working out all there abilitys"

Combination of feats + Tactics + Compaions + Magic items are what make heros legendary. You could no more use a wish to grant you a feat than you could to fill you with wonderious tactics, worthy magic items or companions to follow you.

-Frosty
Vaelan
07-31-04, 09:04 PM I'd imagine if a 4th level Psion/Telepath ability could do it, a Wish could...

Not that you should expect your DM to allow Wish to emulate Psionics. Even though it is technically possible, if your DM doesn't want to use Psionics it won't work.
Dea ex Machina
08-01-04, 01:44 AM I believe some feats should be aloud to change under the right condition. Thats say your charecter swears allegience to the Court of Stars and now has the Knight of Stars feat. You become disenfranchies with the Court of Stars and no longer abide by their edicts and at times even go against then, you no longer gain the benefit of the feat and it no longer provides a roleplay factor. Or lets say your a fighter with Improved Shield Bash, then you lose your off-hand and are no longer able to carry a shield. After a year like this you no longer have the skill to use the shield properly under the feat so you should be able to substitute it for something else once you have trained for the new feat.

Many feats should not be aloud to be changed, yet when taking a roleplay perspective you see that the charecter no longer has the capacity to use that feat he/she should be aloud to study to exchange feats.
Kaminton
08-01-04, 03:56 AM Just allow wish to duplicate the psychic reformation power (or whatever it's called).

It basically allows you to rewind so many class levels and make those choices (skills, feats, spells/powers) all over again, at a cost of xp for every level that you go back. (Which wish has to pay for).

Some posters on the Psionics board seem to think the power's broken though. Having never used it, I wouldn't know :)
Dracoulis The Phyrexian
08-01-04, 04:36 AM Most certainly, I would.

Psychic Reformation can do it for 1000 EXP, and that's assuming you want to switch your level 1 feat when you're at level 20! It costs less if it's sooner.

This certainly does seem in line with the powers of Wish, and would be acceptable. 5000 EXP to do it? Well, that's the cost of doing it magically. Sorry.
smrtgmp
08-01-04, 06:21 AM As said, you can do it with psychic reformation. I would also allow a spell caster to research a magical version if they dont have access to psionics.
Seeker95
08-01-04, 09:50 AM Although I don't use psionics in my medieval fantasy games (psionics are for sci-fi / modern), the description of this reformation ability sounds definitively broken.

Who wouldn't sacrifice some experience points to get a chance at the perfect character build?
bitnine
08-01-04, 09:56 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
Who wouldn't sacrifice some experience points to get a chance at the perfect character build? Someone who chose the right feats the first time around?
smrtgmp
08-01-04, 05:43 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Although I don't use psionics in my medieval fantasy games (psionics are for sci-fi / modern), the description of this reformation ability sounds definitively broken.
Psionics are very mideval, just not mideval europe. Eastern cultures abound with mythology that contains individuals with mental powers.

Regarding the power itself, it seems more like a tool to help newbies who picked feats, skill, spells they now dont like. And it would get really expensive to use the power extensively.
Seeker95
08-01-04, 05:57 PM Originally posted by smrtgmp
Psionics are very medieval, just not medieval europe. Eastern cultures abound with mythology that contains individuals with mental powers. Good point. But I will not have "magic" and "psionics" in the same campaign. Unless they have the same mechanics.

Divine
Arcane
Mental
Exact same mechanics otherwise.

:D
BlackSmith
08-01-04, 06:12 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Unless they have the same mechanics. well they sort of use the same mechanics.

the psionic power point pool is same as you would add up all sorcers spells per spell levels to one big spell level pool where you would reduce the same amount of spells levels as the spell you are casting.

IMO if a universe contains monks, it has to contain Psinoics too.

if someone tries to convince to me that exculsive training over your body starts to produce arcane magical powers instead of mental control over materia, i ask him to hold his hand over a candle.
there is no magic involved ignoring the heat, it is called mental control over your body(s reactions). thats psionics, monks are not some wannabe wizards.
if they would be, i would be then lvl 12 wizard based on the amount i have been training.
Seeker95
08-01-04, 11:00 PM Originally posted by BlackSmith
monks are not some wannabe wizards.True. Psionicists are. :D
Rocco Manitta
08-02-04, 12:22 AM I think it's perfectly acceptable to have Miracle or Wish Retro a Feat selection.

Then again, you are talking to a GM who has, over the course of the last 3 years, allowed all players to revise their characters after the various supplements and new books have come out. As the party is now level 25, we have revised our characters many times to account for the various supplemental books.

As GM, I have pretty much allowed any changes to not only feats, but class progression, as long as the overall build resembled what it previously was.

Rock.
smrtgmp
08-02-04, 01:04 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
Good point. But I will not have "magic" and "psionics" in the same campaign. Unless they have the same mechanics.

Divine
Arcane
Mental
Exact same mechanics otherwise.

:D
I agree that magic and psionics should follow the same rules, which is why I like the magic/psionics transperency. It does away with the cheese from past editions when magic couldnt effect psionics. It is now basically a different form of magic, which helps to keep things nice and balanced.

I dont think psions are wannabe wizards, however. They have more in common with sorcerers, and IMO, they are what sorcerers should have been. They've got way more flavor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthrope King 07-31-04, 03:25 PM	Would a limited wish be able to change your feats to something else, or would that require a wish spell?
polsemager 07-31-04, 04:15 PM	I'm not sure I'd allow a wish spell to do that actually.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-31-04, 07:06 PM	If you chose a feat that you don't want anymore, you're just plain stupid. There is no spell that changes feats, so you can't. If I did allow this, it would involve something along the lines of the 2e Paladin process of fulfilling a quest which you wouldn't gain any XP for.
neroaster 07-31-04, 07:22 PM	Hmm I would say yes, because; a wish cost you 5000 xp, you can translate 5000 xp into 25000 gold, for 25000 you can buy a magic item that usually duplicate a feat... (if I am not mistaken a ring of evation costs 25000) AND you also loose a feat in this process (compared to getting an extra feat with a magic item)
Sildatorak 07-31-04, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by Thomar of Uointer If you chose a feat that you don't want anymore, you're just plain stupid. Or maybe you're inexperienced or didn't take 5 hours to figure out your entire progression to level 20 and thought something was going to be better than it turned out to be. Back to the wish question. I think that if you use a wish you could switch a feat, but remember that if you get rid of a feat that is a prereq for another feat you'll lose access to that feat, or if you need it for a PrC you'll lose everything except the weapon and armor proficiencies, BAB, and base saving throws.
Seeker95 07-31-04, 08:12 PM	I would not allow a wish to change a feat. I would probably allow a wish to generate an item that could duplicate a feat, but even then, only if said Feat can be duplicated by spells or existing items. Pick your Feats wisely.
Frostbite_Ravenheart 07-31-04, 08:47 PM	Feats are somthing very special. Just beacuse most fighters have "Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave" Doesn't mean its an easy ability. The ability to cleave is a legendary action within itself and those that master it become famous. Those low-level adventurers are still considered pretty strong and you have to relize when they are criticted they are looked down apon as people "still working out all there abilitys" Combination of feats + Tactics + Compaions + Magic items are what make heros legendary. You could no more use a wish to grant you a feat than you could to fill you with wonderious tactics, worthy magic items or companions to follow you. -Frosty
Vaelan 07-31-04, 09:04 PM	I'd imagine if a 4th level Psion/Telepath ability could do it, a Wish could... Not that you should expect your DM to allow Wish to emulate Psionics. Even though it is technically possible, if your DM doesn't want to use Psionics it won't work.
Dea ex Machina 08-01-04, 01:44 AM	I believe some feats should be aloud to change under the right condition. Thats say your charecter swears allegience to the Court of Stars and now has the Knight of Stars feat. You become disenfranchies with the Court of Stars and no longer abide by their edicts and at times even go against then, you no longer gain the benefit of the feat and it no longer provides a roleplay factor. Or lets say your a fighter with Improved Shield Bash, then you lose your off-hand and are no longer able to carry a shield. After a year like this you no longer have the skill to use the shield properly under the feat so you should be able to substitute it for something else once you have trained for the new feat. Many feats should not be aloud to be changed, yet when taking a roleplay perspective you see that the charecter no longer has the capacity to use that feat he/she should be aloud to study to exchange feats.
Kaminton 08-01-04, 03:56 AM	Just allow wish to duplicate the psychic reformation power (or whatever it's called). It basically allows you to rewind so many class levels and make those choices (skills, feats, spells/powers) all over again, at a cost of xp for every level that you go back. (Which wish has to pay for). Some posters on the Psionics board seem to think the power's broken though. Having never used it, I wouldn't know :)
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 08-01-04, 04:36 AM	Most certainly, I would. Psychic Reformation can do it for 1000 EXP, and that's assuming you want to switch your level 1 feat when you're at level 20! It costs less if it's sooner. This certainly does seem in line with the powers of Wish, and would be acceptable. 5000 EXP to do it? Well, that's the cost of doing it magically. Sorry.
smrtgmp 08-01-04, 06:21 AM	As said, you can do it with psychic reformation. I would also allow a spell caster to research a magical version if they dont have access to psionics.
Seeker95 08-01-04, 09:50 AM	Although I don't use psionics in my medieval fantasy games (psionics are for sci-fi / modern), the description of this reformation ability sounds definitively broken. Who wouldn't sacrifice some experience points to get a chance at the perfect character build?
bitnine 08-01-04, 09:56 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Who wouldn't sacrifice some experience points to get a chance at the perfect character build? Someone who chose the right feats the first time around?
smrtgmp 08-01-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Although I don't use psionics in my medieval fantasy games (psionics are for sci-fi / modern), the description of this reformation ability sounds definitively broken. Psionics are very mideval, just not mideval europe. Eastern cultures abound with mythology that contains individuals with mental powers. Regarding the power itself, it seems more like a tool to help newbies who picked feats, skill, spells they now dont like. And it would get really expensive to use the power extensively.
Seeker95 08-01-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp Psionics are very medieval, just not medieval europe. Eastern cultures abound with mythology that contains individuals with mental powers. Good point. But I will not have "magic" and "psionics" in the same campaign. Unless they have the same mechanics. Divine Arcane Mental Exact same mechanics otherwise. :D
BlackSmith 08-01-04, 06:12 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Unless they have the same mechanics. well they sort of use the same mechanics. the psionic power point pool is same as you would add up all sorcers spells per spell levels to one big spell level pool where you would reduce the same amount of spells levels as the spell you are casting. IMO if a universe contains monks, it has to contain Psinoics too. if someone tries to convince to me that exculsive training over your body starts to produce arcane magical powers instead of mental control over materia, i ask him to hold his hand over a candle. there is no magic involved ignoring the heat, it is called mental control over your body(s reactions). thats psionics, monks are not some wannabe wizards. if they would be, i would be then lvl 12 wizard based on the amount i have been training.
Seeker95 08-01-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by BlackSmith monks are not some wannabe wizards.True. Psionicists are. :D
Rocco Manitta 08-02-04, 12:22 AM	I think it's perfectly acceptable to have Miracle or Wish Retro a Feat selection. Then again, you are talking to a GM who has, over the course of the last 3 years, allowed all players to revise their characters after the various supplements and new books have come out. As the party is now level 25, we have revised our characters many times to account for the various supplemental books. As GM, I have pretty much allowed any changes to not only feats, but class progression, as long as the overall build resembled what it previously was. Rock.
smrtgmp 08-02-04, 01:04 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Good point. But I will not have "magic" and "psionics" in the same campaign. Unless they have the same mechanics. Divine Arcane Mental Exact same mechanics otherwise. :D I agree that magic and psionics should follow the same rules, which is why I like the magic/psionics transperency. It does away with the cheese from past editions when magic couldnt effect psionics. It is now basically a different form of magic, which helps to keep things nice and balanced. I dont think psions are wannabe wizards, however. They have more in common with sorcerers, and IMO, they are what sorcerers should have been. They've got way more flavor.