Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rixarn 03-21-05, 09:31 AM	Ok, what happens if i use Polymorph any object on my character to alter its size to Colossal. What changes and what doesnt.? (speed, Reach, equipment?) Also if there is a Str boost where can i look at the table for bonuses or something? thanks :) ah, and btw what happens if I 1st cast shapechange self to Giant, Stone(Large) then Poly Any object to Colossal,, is my character now a Colossal Stone Giant? thanks
The_Ditto 03-21-05, 01:16 PM	Ok, what happens if i use Polymorph any object on my character to alter its size to Colossal. What changes and what doesnt.? (speed, Reach, equipment?) Also if there is a Str boost where can i look at the table for bonuses or something? thanks :) ah, and btw what happens if I 1st cast shapechange self to Giant, Stone(Large) then Poly Any object to Colossal,, is my character now a Colossal Stone Giant? thanks Well, off the top of my head ... not going to happen ... you can't just use to "change size" .. you gotta pick a new form .. Now if you picked something that was colossal .. yes, you'd get the str,dex and con of that new form .. If you want to keep your own form and increase size .. use Enlarge ..
calypso 03-21-05, 01:39 PM	Secondly, with Polymorph spells, the new form can be no larger than 1 size catergory larger than original. This applies in both 3.0 and 3.5. 3.0 states it explicitly in Polymorph Any Object, and in 3.5, Polymorph Any Object extends Polymorph which extends Alter Self, which has that limitation. Calypso
Seeker95 03-21-05, 03:47 PM	[...]in 3.5, Polymorph Any Object extends Polymorph which extends Alter Self, which has that limitation.Bad example. The PAO table lists turning a shrew into a manticore. Definitely more than a one-size category increase.
calypso 03-21-05, 03:50 PM	Hmm... then where is that limitation lost? Polymorph says that you can't turn things into something smaller than Fine. I assumed that changed the lower limit, not the upper. Calypso
Seeker95 03-21-05, 03:54 PM	Hmm... then where is that limitation lost? Polymorph says that you can't turn things into something smaller than Fine. I assumed that changed the lower limit, not the upper.To keep it simple, I say the limitation is lost in polymorph any object. This spell is NOT in the "chain". It explicitly lists examples that remove every restriction found in polymorph. The mistake is not in the examples, but rather in the first sentence. It operates nothing like polymorph.
calypso 03-21-05, 04:05 PM	Fair enough, that I can live with. I thought you were trying to argue that Polymorph didn't have the size limitation. But for an 8th level spell, Polymorph Any Object SHOULD be damn powerful. Calypso
okpokalypse 03-21-05, 04:13 PM	Ok, what happens if i use Polymorph any object on my character to alter its size to Colossal. What changes and what doesnt.? (speed, Reach, equipment?) Also if there is a Str boost where can i look at the table for bonuses or something? thanks :) ah, and btw what happens if I 1st cast shapechange self to Giant, Stone(Large) then Poly Any object to Colossal,, is my character now a Colossal Stone Giant? thanks Here's a reference: 3.5 MM p 291 "A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size, such as improved grab. Increased size also affects a creature's ability scores, AC, attack bonus and damage values..." When a creature (note, a human is a humanoid creature) changes due to size increase, they should go through these progressions. This becomes especially dicey with the Enlarge Spell and Expansion Power. I have completely house-ruled these spells to work completely different because I had players arguing that a size increase should take the better of the size bonuses given via spell or table 4-2 on the aforementioned page. The problem was that I couldn't disagree with them. When you considered their body weight increased by a factor of x8, but they only got a +2 Str from Enlarge, well, they were no longer capable of lifting themselves up. If you're interested in how I house-ruled the Enlargement of a PC/Creature via spells, let me know and I'll post it.
Yobgod Ababua 03-21-05, 04:54 PM	You still can't use P-A-O to just change your size... you need to choose a new form and you'll become an average example of that form, which already includes the modifiers for being of a larger size. This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The upper limit for Polymorph isn't explicitly stated by size, but rather comes from the maximum HD limit for the assumed form (no more than any of: caster level, subject's HD, or 15). Really really large creatures will have more HD than is allowed, and will thus be unavailable. As an addendum, enlarge person gives the bonuses it does because that's the amount of bonus that's balanced for a spell of that level. An argument of "but this violates common sense" should NOT trump game balance, ever.
calypso 03-21-05, 05:03 PM	Actually, no, there still is a size limit on Polymorph. It says it acts as Alter Self "except"... since Alter Self says that you can't change into something more than 1 size larger than your own, I would assume that Polymorph inherits this limitation as well. Calypso
guardiandashi 03-21-05, 05:58 PM	heres an interesting question for you guys. poly any object (cast on bob) bob is a human elf etc. (doesn't really matter) you choose to make bob a 1/2 dragon (apply half dragon template) now according to the poly any table the way I read it this should be a permanent change correct? if so then what happens if I cast poly any object on bob the 1/2 dragon and choose as a final form a female dragon (of the type I chose as the 1/2 dragon) from the previous polymorph? assuming that for whatever reason bob does not choose to resist the effect.
Sir Gibalot 03-21-05, 06:16 PM	Calypso, The size-related bits to polymorph are that: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form." Thus why would it mention the bit about fine unless size was unlimited? There would be no point, as the smallest PCs are small, and one size lower is tiny (unless you're using wierd and wonderful PC races). Fine wouldn't come into it. As someone's said, I'm sure the upper limit is gone and the only limit is the HD of the creature. -Sir Gibalot.
Seeker95 03-21-05, 06:16 PM	if so then what happens if I cast poly any object on bob the 1/2 dragon and choose as a final form a female dragon (of the type I chose as the 1/2 dragon) from the previous polymorph?Whatever your DM wants. I always use original form to determine duration. No incermental changes to beat the duration limits. But if your DM wants to allow it, go for it.
Rixarn 03-21-05, 08:39 PM	Well, this is a tricky spell indeed. As for the size,,, the polymorph spell says size no smaller than fine. Is there a smaller size than that? As stated there´s no "large size" limit on this spell so i agree too with the no size limit. Still... i find weird it cant be used to Reduce/Enlarge something :confused: If you can turn a pebble to human why cant you turn a human into a larger human? Oh well at least its logic in terms of Game-Balance. And BTW i refered at the start to Shapechange+PAO combo... With Shapechange i can turn to almost everything. (Even Colossal Creatures)
Yobgod Ababua 03-21-05, 09:23 PM	If you can turn a pebble to human why cant you turn a human into a larger human? Because that spell is called Enlarge Person. ;) If you want a reasonable flavor explanation of why Polymorph spells can only create 'average' or 'iconic' version of creatures, consider 'true names' similar to what Ursula LeGuin describes in her A Wizard of EarthSea series. Everything has a true name... to truly change (polymorph) one thing to another, you must rename it. Whenever you polymorph someone into a snail, you need to use the true name for snail, which represents no individual snail, but rather the generic concept of 'snail-ness', and thus changes them to a generic instantiation of that generic snailness. When you polymorph someone into a human, you use the true word for humankind, and they become a generic human. There is no true name for "just like he is now, only larger", which is why polymorph cannot substitute for enlarge person.
Shini Neko Ni 03-21-05, 10:50 PM	Well seeing that most likely you are a spell caster here is a a idea for you. In the Complete Arcane there is a Wu Jen spell with a little work can be made into a sor/wiz spell as well its called Giant Size however it only lasts for a Minute and is a level 7 spell however you can get into Huge to Colossal with it. Also useing those rules as a guildline yes you do get bonuses to Str, you also get minuses to dex and a smaller bounus to Con. Anyways if you own the book its on page 109-110 if not well u_u I can't post it, its not OGL. Anyways I hope that helps some! ^^
Rixarn 03-21-05, 11:38 PM	Your logic is good Ababua, but i think you miss the fact you can use PAO to duplicate spell efects that change things, like transmute rock tu mud, mud to rock, water to dust flesh to stone . Particulary the last one turns the subjects body to stone. There is no generic concept of "him but turned to stone" as for "him but enlarged", still you can do it. I liked tho your "true name" theory a lot ;) sounds like the universals in phylosophy or something hehe BTW i dont have the manual but i think its not good to switch spells from diferent classes, its just leaving the flavor of some class only spells so its fun to play that class. But thanks for the help tho! :)
Nyferto 03-22-05, 07:17 AM	Seeing as Alter self only works on self, it is reasonable to assume the size limitations of Polymorph are applied by the caster or it's target Can you then Polmorph another based on your size or their size? If a medium sized creature polymorphs a small creature, can it turn them into a large creature or a medium creature? If you can answer that, you can answer the size limitations of POA. Either way - you're still limited to 15HD. I fail to see how the examples of POA break all their own deffinitions? Personally I think they're relics of 3.0 that should be errated. 3.0 Polymorph ignored size restrictions for simple HD. Finally, if I target the earth, can I polymorph it into one size catagory larger than itself or myself? Or can I improve it to anything as long as it's not fine.
The Mailman 03-22-05, 12:39 PM	Actually, no, there still is a size limit on Polymorph. It says it acts as Alter Self "except"... since Alter Self says that you can't change into something more than 1 size larger than your own, I would assume that Polymorph inherits this limitation as well. Calypso From the rules of the game article, part 3, regarding polymorph as compared to alter self: "The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal. The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll."
calypso 03-22-05, 01:16 PM	From the rules of the game article, part 3, regarding polymorph as compared to alter self: "The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal. The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll." Ahh, okay. Thanks. Calypso