Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mark_Aged 10-29-07, 10:10 AM	Okay, I was think of lowering the XP cost of Wish to something lower, around 3000-1500 XP. The catch is that if the player doesn't word his wish just right, it messes up. Like, if they wish outside the limits of the spell, I'll try in anyway I can to make it screw up. "I wish for a ton of gold!" An Evil Great Wyrm Gold Dragon appears next to them, over 2000 pounds of gold appears above them, etc. What do you think? Has anyone else done something like this before?
vorpo 10-29-07, 10:17 AM	You can't mess up wishes that asks for effects listed in the PHB tho. How are you gonna mess up wishing for inherent bonus? At 1500 XP cost, it is a lot easier to get a +5 for 7500 XP instead of 25000 XP.
Damned slayer 10-29-07, 10:20 AM	dont do it like that or they will take time to phrase their wish and wish stupid things that are way above the spell Wish is a powerfull spell that shouldn't often be used so its the reason it costs so much XP if you lower it than all PC's will have +5 in 2 or 3 stats you would have to reprice all the items and... BTW what if they survice their silly wish that you screwed up??
runestar 10-29-07, 10:20 AM	I usually don't mess up wishes. I either grant them (if they are within the suggested guidelines), or simply tell my player that what he wants won't fly. So for me, that rule simply means that wish grants less.:)
Mark_Aged 10-29-07, 10:24 AM	dont do it like that or they will take time to phrase their wish and wish stupid things that are way above the spell Wish is a powerfull spell that shouldn't often be used so its the reason it costs so much XP if you lower it than all PC's will have +5 in 2 or 3 stats you would have to reprice all the items and... BTW what if they survice their silly wish that you screwed up?? Screw it up till the cost of all this screwing isn't worth their wish. The money that dropped on them turns out to be copper painted gold, so they buy stuff with it, but the shopkeepers find out, then all guards and good wizard are trying to catch them to put them in jail, etc.
Nadaka 10-29-07, 10:25 AM	I suggest reducing the xp cost of wish when duplicating a lower level spell. If it is a spell the caster knows, 10 xp per spell level If it is a spell on the casters list, 30xp per spell level If it is a spell not on the casters list, 100 xp per spell level
jaelis 10-29-07, 12:30 PM	I actually revised the XP cost entirely, making it lower along the lines of Nadaka's suggestion. I settled on: - 100 XP/level for duplicating a spell (plus any XP cost of the duplicated spell itself). - 1000 XP to undo harmful effects. - 1 XP per 5 gp value to create an item, minimum 100 XP. - 5000 XP per point of inherent bonus (max +5, as usual). - 250 XP per creature to remove injuries or afflictions. - 500 XP to duplicate raise dead, plus 5000 XP to recreate a body if needed. - 250 XP per creature to transport characters. - 5000 XP to undo misfortune. As for twisting wishes, I've never liked that. It seems hopelessly metagamy... your character would be both better at it than you (in terms of practical things) and worse (in terms of game rules). And if your character is a high Int wizard, he'd just be more clever than you all around. So I play that you get what you wish for, it just has to be in the scope of the above.
Witch 10-29-07, 12:35 PM	"- 250 XP per creature to transport characters." is too low. Transporting characters is one of the most powerful features of wish, because it is exact, and ignores the presence of magical limitations of teleportation, even if they are instated through the properties of a divine realm.
jaelis 10-29-07, 12:41 PM	"- 250 XP per creature to transport characters." is too low. Transporting characters is one of the most powerful features of wish, because it is exact, and ignores the presence of magical limitations of teleportation, even if they are instated through the properties of a divine realm. Well, for 5000 XP, you can transport 20 characters (at CL 20). I just made it scale. For a typical party, you're still talking about more than 1000 XP, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me. YMMV :)
Undrhil 10-29-07, 12:52 PM	In the case of duplicated spell effects, I'd say add the XP cost of that spell if the spell requires an XP cost, in addition to the XP cost for Wish. Double the XP cost for Wish if they want to duplicate the spell effects of a spell requiring a component which they don't want to use or don't have.
Mark_Aged 10-29-07, 01:03 PM	Wow, jaelis and Nadaka's ways are good, I'm houseruling both of them.
PhaedrusXY 10-29-07, 04:33 PM	I use the same rules for Wish as those listed in Miracle. If you emulate a lower level spell, or use it for alot of other "mundane" purposes, it costs no XP at all. If you Wish for a "greater effect", or boost inherent bonuses, it costs 5000 XP. I really don't understand (or like) the fact that clerics in 3.X got a better version of "Wish" than wizards did. So I think you should either make Miracle cost 5000 XP every time, or get rid of the cost for most uses of Wish. And no, I don't think "but Miracle comes from a god" is a good excuse. So do all the other freakin' cleric spells.
Damned slayer 10-29-07, 05:39 PM	I use the same rules for Wish as those listed in Miracle. If you emulate a lower level spell, or use it for alot of other "mundane" purposes, it costs no XP at all. If you Wish for a "greater effect", or boost inherent bonuses, it costs 5000 XP. I really don't understand (or like) the fact that clerics in 3.X got a better version of "Wish" than wizards did. So I think you should either make Miracle cost 5000 XP every time, or get rid of the cost for most uses of Wish. And no, I don't think "but Miracle comes from a god" is a good excuse. So do all the other freakin' cleric spells. It's dam easier to refuse a miracle than to refuse a wish, nothing says the god will grant it,a wizard is free to ask whatever he wants while a good clerir of life wouldn't get his copied finger of death granted :) You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. and usually the spells you want to duplicate are on wizard spell list so you get 1 spell lvl lower...
Nephlite 10-29-07, 05:42 PM	It's dam easier to refuse a miracle than to refuse a wish, nothing says the god will grant it,a wizard is free to ask whatever he wants while a good clerir of life wouldn't get his copied finger of death granted :) Why does it matter that Cleric is good. Do Clerics have life hate death? Than why does he allow it to happen to people... Life and death are two sides of the same coin: why deny a non-aligned spell that involves nothing wrong?
Rune_Munch 10-29-07, 06:32 PM	Why deny a non-aligned spell that involves nothing wrong? How would you feel if you were the CEO of a fortune 500 and a low level middle management guy kept knocking your door, asking if you would xerox a few pages for him? :P
PhaedrusXY 10-29-07, 06:52 PM	It's dam easier to refuse a miracle than to refuse a wish, nothing says the god will grant it,a wizard is free to ask whatever he wants while a good clerir of life wouldn't get his copied finger of death granted :)DMs are notorious for wanting to "twist" Wishes, though. Personally, I wouldn't deny/mess with either Wish or Miracle, if all they're doing is replicating a lower level spell. If a cleric tried to replicate a spell with an alignment descriptor opposed to their own alignment (or their deity's) it would fail automatically, anyway. No need for DM intervention. Clerics can't cast spells opposed to their alignment or their deity's. And if you start denying a bunch of relatively tame and mundane Miracle "requests", and thereby wasting your cleric's 9th level spellslots, you're going to have an unhappy player very quickly. Also, if the PCs is roleplaying their cleric properly, most "requests" are not going to be out of line with their deity's ideals. So in practice, I doubt most Miracle's are going to be denied. They're going to function more or less exactly like Wish... except they'll lack an XP cost. Wish has always been hyped as "the most powerful spell in existance". I just find it really annoying that this is no longer true. In fact, Miracle is stronger in all ways. It's just another part of the "Clerics of the Coast" phenomenon. If Miracle is fine as printed, then it certainly isn't going to break the game to get rid of the XP cost on Wish for the purposes of duplicating lower level spells, and whatever other functions Miracle does that don't cost XP.
vorpo 10-29-07, 07:17 PM	I actually revised the XP cost entirely, making it lower along the lines of Nadaka's suggestion. I settled on: - 100 XP/level for duplicating a spell (plus any XP cost of the duplicated spell itself). Too low. The point of having high xp cost when duplicating spells is for you not to over use it doing so. Why would you not want to memorize 90% of your spells as wish, or for that, limited wish to duplicate spells with such a low xp cost.
jaelis 10-29-07, 07:34 PM	Too low. The point of having high xp cost when duplicating spells is for you not to over use it doing so. Why would you not want to memorize 90% of your spells as wish, or for that, limited wish to duplicate spells with such a low xp cost. If you want to spend all your 9th level slots on wishes for lower level spells, and burn some XP to boot, that's fine with me.
PhaedrusXY 10-29-07, 07:37 PM	Too low. The point of having high xp cost when duplicating spells is for you not to over use it doing so. Why would you not want to memorize 90% of your spells as wish, or for that, limited wish to duplicate spells with such a low xp cost.Because you can only duplicate lower level spells. Why not use an actual 9th level spell, instead, like Time Stop or Shapechange?
Nadaka 10-29-07, 07:38 PM	Because you get 1 to 7 9th level spell slots depending on ability scores, level and class. Because spells like shapechange are superior area effect death/damage spells than any 8th level or lower spell. Because sometimes its just cool to ask everyone for a fort save or die. Sometimes you want to gate in a freakin solar. Sometimes 40d6 just isn't enough. Sometimes you want to time stop, reverse gravity and place a prismatic wall above someone. Sometimes you want to determine the fate of the universe, in the surprise round.
archerpwr 10-29-07, 07:46 PM	I use the same rules for Wish as those listed in Miracle. If you emulate a lower level spell, or use it for alot of other "mundane" purposes, it costs no XP at all. If you Wish for a "greater effect", or boost inherent bonuses, it costs 5000 XP. I really don't understand (or like) the fact that clerics in 3.X got a better version of "Wish" than wizards did. So I think you should either make Miracle cost 5000 XP every time, or get rid of the cost for most uses of Wish. And no, I don't think "but Miracle comes from a god" is a good excuse. So do all the other freakin' cleric spells. I'm with you man. 100% agree. Heck, I was willing to dip wyrm wizard (losing a CL) just to use miracle instead of wish in a game because of the silly xp cost to replicate lower level spells.
Mark_Aged 10-29-07, 10:44 PM	Looking at Miracle, I decided to rewrite Wish, tell me what you think: Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects for no XP cost. Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower. Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower. Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. If the wish has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost. Wish can also do the following with an XP cost, listed below. Pay 1 XP per 5 gp value to create an item, maximum 5000 XP. You can use this to create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level at 250 XP per creature to remove injuries or afflictions, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead. Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life for 5500 XP. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, and dosn't cost character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level at 250 XP per creature from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. Alternatively, a wish can produce any one of the following effects at 5000 xp cost. You can also wish for any effect whose power level is in line with the effects below for 5000 XP. Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies. Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells). Material Component When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost.
navar100 10-30-07, 02:25 AM	Read something like this in a sig: Wish is a 9th level arcane spell that is supposed to help the wizard casting it. Don't treat it as any other way. Wish does not give the DM permission to screw over a player's character. A player wishing "to win" D&D deserves the whipping. Otherwise, back off. However, it is kind to ease the XP burden of Wish, even forgoing it completely, for the following reasons: 1) Merely to duplicate a lower level spell. 2) Cure an affliction such as Insanity, Feeble Mind, Geas, etc. 3) Heal hit points, ability scores, negative levels, etc. Creating wealth, magic items, undo calamities of the previous round, etc., as mentioned in the spell description still get the XP cost.
Damned slayer 10-30-07, 01:51 PM	just to say Miracle might not cost XP but its weaker tho there are things you can do with wish that you cant with miracle Wish is more powerfull than miracle I don't say it should cost 5000XP each time tho
Nephlite 10-30-07, 03:34 PM	just to say Miracle might not cost XP but its weaker tho there are things you can do with wish that you cant with miracle Wish is more powerfull than miracle I don't say it should cost 5000XP each time tho Um, what parts of miracle are weaker?
Operation_Shoestring 10-31-07, 12:00 AM	I would rule Wish = 500 EXP burned minimum (limited wish is 300) for any effect. For Inherent Attribute bonuses, the Caster pays 500 EXP and the recipient pays 4000 EXP. When scribing a Wish scroll, 500 EXP + EXP for scribing is paid. The Full EXP cost minus 500 EXP is burned when the wish is cast from the scroll, by whoever reads the scroll. That way everyone in the party can benefit from inherent boosts, not just the casters. (provided the caster is willing to part with 500 EXP per bonus- it's not so bad compared to the 5000 otherwise.)
Damned slayer 10-31-07, 12:57 PM	I would rule Wish = 500 EXP burned minimum (limited wish is 300) for any effect. For Inherent Attribute bonuses, the Caster pays 500 EXP and the recipient pays 4000 EXP. When scribing a Wish scroll, 500 EXP + EXP for scribing is paid. The Full EXP cost minus 500 EXP is burned when the wish is cast from the scroll, by whoever reads the scroll. That way everyone in the party can benefit from inherent boosts, not just the casters. (provided the caster is willing to part with 500 EXP per bonus- it's not so bad compared to the 5000 otherwise.) the point in using magic item is precisly of not burning XP and how would you cast 5 wish in a row?? I already played that for every buffs the recipient / beneficior in case of magic item could pay the XP cost. The party was more permanant buff since everyone was paying the XP for his own buffs so it wasn't the caster's burden it was nice to play that way BTW you cant cast inherent bonus with miracle so makes it less powerfull that's the only thing that come to my mind right now