Charm, Dominate and Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm, Dominate and Outsiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheAmazingJoe
02-25-05, 11:05 PM I have a questionwith regards to the spells Dominate and Charm Monster. Accoring to the PBH, these spells work just like Dominate Person and Charm Person respectively. I'm trying to create a villian (evil wizard) who has a Devil in his service (one of the fallen angel types, an Erinyes there called). To keep her under his control, she wears a collar that acts as if the spell Dominate Monster is cast upon it, and he carries a brooch that acts as the controller for the collar. Whoever possesses the brooch has dominion over whoever is bound by the collar.

However, my dilema is that before I even begin to comit to this idea, I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider. The rules don't really say they do or dont.

Could someone help me out with this?
Bloodtide_the_Red
02-26-05, 12:08 AM ..........I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider. The rules don't really say they do or dont..............

Sure. It's quite clear realy. Read the text of Charm Monster or Dominate Monster. It says 'this spell is not restricted by creature type.'

BT
TheAmazingJoe
02-26-05, 12:30 AM Ok, I guess I just wasn't reading into the description clearly enough. Thanks. Now I have another question. An Erinyes has spell resistence of 20. Would that count towards the saving throw when the magic item would take effect? Or does that only count towards combat spells?
smrtgmp
02-26-05, 12:32 AM The SR would work, but SR 20 is a joke against a powerful wizard. Anyone capable of casting 9th level spells is at least 17th level, which means they only have to roll a 3 or higher on a d20 to overcome the SR. Besides, you're the DM, so just say the wizo succeeded in overcoming the SR.
TheAmazingJoe
02-26-05, 12:42 AM Excellent. That answers my questions. Now all I have to do is build the magical item. Shouldn't be too hard, considering I now have the info I need. Thanks again to those who helped me with my questions.
smrtgmp
02-26-05, 12:49 AM Always glad to help. Especially if the person asking has Yoda for an avatar. :)
TheAmazingJoe
02-26-05, 12:53 AM Much appreciated, your help was. And remember, try not. Do or do not. there is no try. ;)
TheAmazingJoe
02-26-05, 01:47 PM Ok, here it is. Enjoy

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=385892
Vatras
02-26-05, 02:59 PM You could always resort to the old thing from 1st Edition, when devils and demons could hide their life somewhere. If the item with the soul in it fell into someones hands, he could command the creature.
(In 1st edition such beings, who had their soul hidden away could also not die while it existed and would reform themselves over time, what was the reason to do it in the first place.)
That way you circumvent all complicated devices and achieve what you want: an outsider under the control of someone who has a device for it. You would also escape some possible snares (dont know if that would be relevant), when the devil entered a Magic Circle vs ... spell (that would void normal magical compulsions while inside, and allow her to free herself by using her own Protection from ... power (it does not matter what type, they all void magical control, no matter what alignment the caster has).
TheAmazingJoe
02-26-05, 04:24 PM I like that variation. Plus, if the Erinyes does ever regain her freedom and her soul, she'd be ready to get back at the wizard for entraping her in the first place (if the PC's don't kill him first, that is).

I like.

But this is assuming that the old rule would still apply. I haven't played 1st ED in ages, and I haven't seen anything in 3.0 or 3.5 saying that devils or demons could even do that.
Vatras
02-26-05, 04:33 PM Its the DMs prerogative to say what works for his game :)
Bregalad
02-26-05, 05:31 PM I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider

Just a little tidbit from 2nd ed MoP as a sidebar.

Dominate monster will not work on an outsider in their native plane. Neither will associated spells like charm. Its a nice little change to surprise your PCs if they plane travel.
cwslyclgh
02-26-05, 05:36 PM 2e rules are not valid (Not only that but 2e didn't have a manual of the planes) in a 3e game... if outsiders still possesed this trait of being immune to charm and dominate when they are on thier own plane it would be mentioned in the 3e monster manual, or manual of the planes, or planar handbook. (Or most likley all 3)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheAmazingJoe 02-25-05, 11:05 PM	I have a questionwith regards to the spells Dominate and Charm Monster. Accoring to the PBH, these spells work just like Dominate Person and Charm Person respectively. I'm trying to create a villian (evil wizard) who has a Devil in his service (one of the fallen angel types, an Erinyes there called). To keep her under his control, she wears a collar that acts as if the spell Dominate Monster is cast upon it, and he carries a brooch that acts as the controller for the collar. Whoever possesses the brooch has dominion over whoever is bound by the collar. However, my dilema is that before I even begin to comit to this idea, I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider. The rules don't really say they do or dont. Could someone help me out with this?
Bloodtide_the_Red 02-26-05, 12:08 AM	..........I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider. The rules don't really say they do or dont.............. Sure. It's quite clear realy. Read the text of Charm Monster or Dominate Monster. It says 'this spell is not restricted by creature type.' BT
TheAmazingJoe 02-26-05, 12:30 AM	Ok, I guess I just wasn't reading into the description clearly enough. Thanks. Now I have another question. An Erinyes has spell resistence of 20. Would that count towards the saving throw when the magic item would take effect? Or does that only count towards combat spells?
smrtgmp 02-26-05, 12:32 AM	The SR would work, but SR 20 is a joke against a powerful wizard. Anyone capable of casting 9th level spells is at least 17th level, which means they only have to roll a 3 or higher on a d20 to overcome the SR. Besides, you're the DM, so just say the wizo succeeded in overcoming the SR.
TheAmazingJoe 02-26-05, 12:42 AM	Excellent. That answers my questions. Now all I have to do is build the magical item. Shouldn't be too hard, considering I now have the info I need. Thanks again to those who helped me with my questions.
smrtgmp 02-26-05, 12:49 AM	Always glad to help. Especially if the person asking has Yoda for an avatar. :)
TheAmazingJoe 02-26-05, 12:53 AM	Much appreciated, your help was. And remember, try not. Do or do not. there is no try. ;)
TheAmazingJoe 02-26-05, 01:47 PM	Ok, here it is. Enjoy http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=385892
Vatras 02-26-05, 02:59 PM	You could always resort to the old thing from 1st Edition, when devils and demons could hide their life somewhere. If the item with the soul in it fell into someones hands, he could command the creature. (In 1st edition such beings, who had their soul hidden away could also not die while it existed and would reform themselves over time, what was the reason to do it in the first place.) That way you circumvent all complicated devices and achieve what you want: an outsider under the control of someone who has a device for it. You would also escape some possible snares (dont know if that would be relevant), when the devil entered a Magic Circle vs ... spell (that would void normal magical compulsions while inside, and allow her to free herself by using her own Protection from ... power (it does not matter what type, they all void magical control, no matter what alignment the caster has).
TheAmazingJoe 02-26-05, 04:24 PM	I like that variation. Plus, if the Erinyes does ever regain her freedom and her soul, she'd be ready to get back at the wizard for entraping her in the first place (if the PC's don't kill him first, that is). I like. But this is assuming that the old rule would still apply. I haven't played 1st ED in ages, and I haven't seen anything in 3.0 or 3.5 saying that devils or demons could even do that.
Vatras 02-26-05, 04:33 PM	Its the DMs prerogative to say what works for his game :)
Bregalad 02-26-05, 05:31 PM	I'm not sure if spells like Charm or Dominate even work on an outsider Just a little tidbit from 2nd ed MoP as a sidebar. Dominate monster will not work on an outsider in their native plane. Neither will associated spells like charm. Its a nice little change to surprise your PCs if they plane travel.
cwslyclgh 02-26-05, 05:36 PM	2e rules are not valid (Not only that but 2e didn't have a manual of the planes) in a 3e game... if outsiders still possesed this trait of being immune to charm and dominate when they are on thier own plane it would be mentioned in the 3e monster manual, or manual of the planes, or planar handbook. (Or most likley all 3)