Charm Moster Loopholes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm Moster Loopholes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Knucklehead
09-16-04, 12:48 PM I was quietly minding my own business, stealing from the rich and giving to me, when I was subjected to a Charm Monster spell. I failed my initial save. I was given an additional save a round later courtesy of Slippery Mind, however my d20 failed me again. The spell came from a goodie-goodie PC to stop me from continuing my lucrative escapades.

Is there anything I can do, or am I charmed for 14 DAYS!? What would you do?
Archtyrant Terevoth
09-16-04, 12:49 PM You're charmed, you're pretty much screwed unless the duration expires or someone else bails you out of it.

The good news is that it won't prevent you from stealing in general, only stealing from the guy who charmed you, and probably all of his friends, but you can still steal from others.
Krelios
09-16-04, 12:54 PM Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend. If you wouldn't normally steal from a friend, then you won't steal from him. If a friend asking you not to steal anything for a couple of weeks would make you stop, then you stop.

On the other hand, if a friend asking you not to steal anything for a couple of weeks would just make you steal behind his back for a couple of weeks, then that's exactly what you'll do.
Razorblade Smile
09-16-04, 01:09 PM Man. Two cardinal rules of gaming look like they've been broken here. You never steal from your teammates, and you never cast hostile spells on your teammates. You just don't do those things even if you have to suspend disbelief.
dorpond
09-16-04, 01:32 PM I can read it again, but did it say he was stealing from his own team? I read that he was stealing from the rich.

Now, if I was a Lawful Good spell caster, I might be inclined "stop" him also but maybe Charm was his only means at the moment.

And like said above, Charm just makes you like your mage friend. he may convince you that stealing like that may "hurt" your friendship but you'll have to roleplay those issues to find an end result.

Good Luck and have fun with this - it's all part of the roleplaying fun of the game :)
Knucklehead
09-16-04, 01:43 PM I was stealing from random NPC's in a village, and we were not "friends" at the time. The DM had failed to bring us together and was just taking things slow. The PC wanted to help the woman I stole from and tracked me down. You could say he used the spell as a method to subdue me.

My problem was initially with the 1 day/level duration and the initial impression that he could control me.

If a friend of the PC who charmed me, threatens me or insults me, would that warrant a new save?
crazysamaritan
09-16-04, 02:23 PM If a friend of the PC who charmed me, threatens me or insults me, would that warrant a new save?
Yep, just like if a friend in real life did it....
meabolex
09-16-04, 02:28 PM But remember, the caster of the Charm Monster spell can get you to do things with a successful Charisma check. You have to follow the order if you fail the opposed check (unless it's obviously harmful -- "put your hand in a fire" -- or suicidal -- "jump off the cliff").
You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do.
Knucklehead
09-16-04, 02:48 PM Slippery Mind would give me two rolls right? The Charisma check would fall into the catagory of Enchantment Spell or Effect wouldn't it?
meabolex
09-16-04, 03:26 PM Slippery Mind would give me two rolls right? The Charisma check would fall into the catagory of Enchantment Spell or Effect wouldn't it?
It's not a saving throw. It's an opposed ability check. Slippery mind won't help.
crazysamaritan
09-16-04, 04:25 PM It's not a saving throw. It's an opposed ability check. Slippery mind won't help.
And technically, it should be a diplomacy check (just to make you hate the diplomacy people even more)
Methos of Aundair
09-16-04, 07:53 PM Originally posted by Knucklehead

My problem was initially with the 1 day/level duration and the initial impression that he could control me.

Remember that when the duration is about to end the spellcaster can just cast the spell again. And this time he could "ask" you as his friend to allow the spell to be cast as it would benefit your friendship. By doing this you would basically be auto failing your save. With the Slippery Mind ability I might allow the target to make a d20 roll due to his ability. Might, I need to reread that ability.

As a DM I would become concerned and probably take action if the spellcaster began abusing this "new friend" and the spell, unless of course the players were enjoying it. If this is causing problems in the group I would take action.
Mywurld
09-17-04, 02:17 PM Let me see if I understand this, if the casting PC or any acquaintance of his threatens him (calls him names, tells him to shut up, says he's going to hit him) then that warrants a save to keep him charmed?

I can see if it were the caster threatening him but, what if the caster is defending him while the friend/acquaintance is saying these things. That in my opinion would make the charmed pc feel safer around the caster.

How about if the caster is not around when said threat occurs how does that affect the charm spell.
Like Krelios said Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend. No where does that say you consider the casters friends your friends. If the charmed PC is alone with the casters friends then he may feel safer due to his friendship with the caster until threat occurs but that should not affect the relationship of the caster and the charmed.
Nimrud
09-17-04, 02:30 PM Simple, go adventuring with him. Egg him on to fight evil monsters. Persuade him to cast a protection from evil spell on you. That breaks his charm and allows you to sneak attack his ass at the same time the monsters show up.
Mywurld
09-17-04, 03:32 PM How is protection from evil going to break a charm spell.
Knucklehead
09-17-04, 03:44 PM Protection from Evil will temporarily suppress the effects of enchantments including charm and dominate. When Protection from Evil expires, the charm will return provided its (the enchantment's) duration is still going. It would be possible to be freed from the charm, kill the enchanter before the duration of Protection from Evil expired, and be free once and for all from the spell. Of course the underlying question is why would Protection from Evil break the enchantment of a non-evil caster? Should it be assumed that the enchanter must be evil for the this to work? I would argue yes, but 3.5 has so many stupid rules, I'll refrain from speculating.
Razorblade Smile
09-17-04, 04:10 PM Unwillingly taking control of and/or manipulating someone's mind through magic (or any other means) is hardly an act of good. At least in the two-dimensional worlds of a game like D&D.
tarkin
09-17-04, 04:47 PM Taking control of someone is neither good nor evil, just as a weapon is neither good nore evil by itself.

It is definitely LAWFUL Law likes to control things.

A Lawful person should definitely have NO problem charming people to get them to stop breaking the law and doing evil things.

A Chaotic person however, should object to it (Good/Nuetral/Evil does not matter).
meabolex
09-17-04, 04:54 PM Unwillingly taking control of and/or manipulating someone's mind through magic (or any other means) is hardly an act of good. At least in the two-dimensional worlds of a game like D&D.
I imagine a wizard would willingly take control and/or manipulate someone's unwilling mind through magic.

Manipulating someone's mind is essentially what teachers (should) do every day. I'm sure there's plenty of situations where making someone not do something evil would be considered good.

Mind control in D&D terms is inherently neutral. Actions define good and evil, not mechanics. Sneak attack isn't evil. Clubbing someone on the head isn't evil. Commiting an evil act is evil.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread. . .
I would argue yes, but 3.5 has so many stupid rules, I'll refrain from speculating.
3.0 had the same exact rules regarding the protection spells and charm/dominate.
Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend.
The bold sentence and the italicized sentence contradict each other. Making someone do something they normally wouldn't do also sounds like mind control to me. . . and that's just a Charisma check away.
And technically, it should be a diplomacy check (just to make you hate the diplomacy people even more).
Well, from a rules balance standpoint, it should not be a diplomacy check. It would essentially be domination if that were the case -- a bard's Diplomacy, with proper feats, skills, and equipment, can go through the roof. Perhaps with the -10 for a full-round action diplomacy check -- but that would make it almost impossible for wizards and (to a degree) sorcerers.
Edymnion
09-17-04, 04:56 PM Lol, if you guys think Charm Person is bad, just read Hypnotism and use your imagination. To help kick start you, I'll point out that the attitude change is permanent and not linked to magic in any way, and to the Fanatical status from the ELH. ;)
meabolex
09-17-04, 05:12 PM To help kick start you, I'll point out that the attitude change is permanent and not linked to magic in any way, and to the Fanatical status from the ELH. ;)
And from the PH:
. . .but only with respect to that particular request.
So, given the low saving throw, low HD cap, and limitation on the 2-steps-in-attitude-change being for only one request, I don't think it's that bad.

If a level 20 barbarian gets charmed out of combat by an ogre mage and loses a Charisma check to have the barbarian attack the party wizard as hard as he can, that's far nastier. Rage, Power Attack 20, possibly dead wizard (assuming admittedly low 52-72 hp and no moment of prescience, etc.). Of course, someone could take a DC 25 sense motive check (instantly easy at level 20 if someone has sense motive) and know the barb is charmed. . . but even that takes a minute (: I guess you'd just have to detect the ogre mage or the spell in the first place (which wouldn't be that hard, but it could happen).
Edymnion
09-17-04, 08:25 PM Most shopkeeps, town guards, and NPCs are going to be within the HD limit.
And your one request only has to be well thought out to make it broken. Hypnotise them to "Trust me". Get them up to Fanatical about trusting you. Then simply say you're going to cast a beneficial spell on them, tell them to trust you so they voluntarily forgo their saving throw, and get their opinion about something else up, like thinking they don't have to charge you so much for something. Or that you're an important person and need defending, or heck, if you do it long enough, you can get an entire city to think that you're a god.

Sure, it doesn't work on high level people/monsters, but not everything should require high levels to pull off. A lvl 1 sorcerer, given enough time, could take over towns and cities with this one single spell.
SphericalTime
09-17-04, 08:41 PM Wow, I just found another favorite spell for my sorcerer.
Edymnion
09-17-04, 08:54 PM Yup, every time you successfully cast it, you increase their attitude towards you, in regards to that particular request, by 2 steps favorable. The increased attitude remains even when the spell wears off. You just cast it again. In very few castings, you can have them up to Fanatical about your request. And if that first one is something as simple as "Trust me", they will be fanatical about trusting you. You could tell them the sky is purple, they will look up at the blue sky and see purple. Thats the power of the Fanatical standing.

After they're fanatical about trusting you, you can essentially tell them anything you want, they'll believe you, and you can hypnotise them day in and day out until they are fanatical about you in every possible regard. Move on to the next person. You take your time, keep things slow, and if somebody makes their save and realises what you're doing, you make sure they "dissappear". Either do it yourself, or have one of your fanatical followers do it for you. It will take you weeks, months even to pull this off, but when you get it, NOTHING can take it away from you. The people are not magically compelled in any way, they will be equally fanatical about you even in an Anti-Magic Field.

And the absolute best part of all this?
Long as they don't make their saves, they never even realize that they were enspelled in the first place. They think their attitudes towards you were 100% their own doing.

Remember kiddies, making somebody blow up is not the true test of power.
The true test of power is when you can make someone blow themselves up for you under their own free will.

And people thought Haste was broken... :D
Knucklehead
09-18-04, 11:02 AM 3.0 had the same exact rules regarding the protection spells and charm/dominate.
Every time I complain about 3.5 rules, people refer me to 3.0 rules. What I should have said was 3.whatever has too many stupid rules. Sorry for the confusion. :D
To give you an update, the DM convinced the PC that keeping my PC charmed was not the pratice of a good person. The spell was subsequently dismissed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knucklehead 09-16-04, 12:48 PM	I was quietly minding my own business, stealing from the rich and giving to me, when I was subjected to a Charm Monster spell. I failed my initial save. I was given an additional save a round later courtesy of Slippery Mind, however my d20 failed me again. The spell came from a goodie-goodie PC to stop me from continuing my lucrative escapades. Is there anything I can do, or am I charmed for 14 DAYS!? What would you do?
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-04, 12:49 PM	You're charmed, you're pretty much screwed unless the duration expires or someone else bails you out of it. The good news is that it won't prevent you from stealing in general, only stealing from the guy who charmed you, and probably all of his friends, but you can still steal from others.
Krelios 09-16-04, 12:54 PM	Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend. If you wouldn't normally steal from a friend, then you won't steal from him. If a friend asking you not to steal anything for a couple of weeks would make you stop, then you stop. On the other hand, if a friend asking you not to steal anything for a couple of weeks would just make you steal behind his back for a couple of weeks, then that's exactly what you'll do.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 01:09 PM	Man. Two cardinal rules of gaming look like they've been broken here. You never steal from your teammates, and you never cast hostile spells on your teammates. You just don't do those things even if you have to suspend disbelief.
dorpond 09-16-04, 01:32 PM	I can read it again, but did it say he was stealing from his own team? I read that he was stealing from the rich. Now, if I was a Lawful Good spell caster, I might be inclined "stop" him also but maybe Charm was his only means at the moment. And like said above, Charm just makes you like your mage friend. he may convince you that stealing like that may "hurt" your friendship but you'll have to roleplay those issues to find an end result. Good Luck and have fun with this - it's all part of the roleplaying fun of the game :)
Knucklehead 09-16-04, 01:43 PM	I was stealing from random NPC's in a village, and we were not "friends" at the time. The DM had failed to bring us together and was just taking things slow. The PC wanted to help the woman I stole from and tracked me down. You could say he used the spell as a method to subdue me. My problem was initially with the 1 day/level duration and the initial impression that he could control me. If a friend of the PC who charmed me, threatens me or insults me, would that warrant a new save?
crazysamaritan 09-16-04, 02:23 PM	If a friend of the PC who charmed me, threatens me or insults me, would that warrant a new save? Yep, just like if a friend in real life did it....
meabolex 09-16-04, 02:28 PM	But remember, the caster of the Charm Monster spell can get you to do things with a successful Charisma check. You have to follow the order if you fail the opposed check (unless it's obviously harmful -- "put your hand in a fire" -- or suicidal -- "jump off the cliff"). You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do.
Knucklehead 09-16-04, 02:48 PM	Slippery Mind would give me two rolls right? The Charisma check would fall into the catagory of Enchantment Spell or Effect wouldn't it?
meabolex 09-16-04, 03:26 PM	Slippery Mind would give me two rolls right? The Charisma check would fall into the catagory of Enchantment Spell or Effect wouldn't it? It's not a saving throw. It's an opposed ability check. Slippery mind won't help.
crazysamaritan 09-16-04, 04:25 PM	It's not a saving throw. It's an opposed ability check. Slippery mind won't help. And technically, it should be a diplomacy check (just to make you hate the diplomacy people even more)
Methos of Aundair 09-16-04, 07:53 PM	Originally posted by Knucklehead My problem was initially with the 1 day/level duration and the initial impression that he could control me. Remember that when the duration is about to end the spellcaster can just cast the spell again. And this time he could "ask" you as his friend to allow the spell to be cast as it would benefit your friendship. By doing this you would basically be auto failing your save. With the Slippery Mind ability I might allow the target to make a d20 roll due to his ability. Might, I need to reread that ability. As a DM I would become concerned and probably take action if the spellcaster began abusing this "new friend" and the spell, unless of course the players were enjoying it. If this is causing problems in the group I would take action.
Mywurld 09-17-04, 02:17 PM	Let me see if I understand this, if the casting PC or any acquaintance of his threatens him (calls him names, tells him to shut up, says he's going to hit him) then that warrants a save to keep him charmed? I can see if it were the caster threatening him but, what if the caster is defending him while the friend/acquaintance is saying these things. That in my opinion would make the charmed pc feel safer around the caster. How about if the caster is not around when said threat occurs how does that affect the charm spell. Like Krelios said Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend. No where does that say you consider the casters friends your friends. If the charmed PC is alone with the casters friends then he may feel safer due to his friendship with the caster until threat occurs but that should not affect the relationship of the caster and the charmed.
Nimrud 09-17-04, 02:30 PM	Simple, go adventuring with him. Egg him on to fight evil monsters. Persuade him to cast a protection from evil spell on you. That breaks his charm and allows you to sneak attack his ass at the same time the monsters show up.
Mywurld 09-17-04, 03:32 PM	How is protection from evil going to break a charm spell.
Knucklehead 09-17-04, 03:44 PM	Protection from Evil will temporarily suppress the effects of enchantments including charm and dominate. When Protection from Evil expires, the charm will return provided its (the enchantment's) duration is still going. It would be possible to be freed from the charm, kill the enchanter before the duration of Protection from Evil expired, and be free once and for all from the spell. Of course the underlying question is why would Protection from Evil break the enchantment of a non-evil caster? Should it be assumed that the enchanter must be evil for the this to work? I would argue yes, but 3.5 has so many stupid rules, I'll refrain from speculating.
Razorblade Smile 09-17-04, 04:10 PM	Unwillingly taking control of and/or manipulating someone's mind through magic (or any other means) is hardly an act of good. At least in the two-dimensional worlds of a game like D&D.
tarkin 09-17-04, 04:47 PM	Taking control of someone is neither good nor evil, just as a weapon is neither good nore evil by itself. It is definitely LAWFUL Law likes to control things. A Lawful person should definitely have NO problem charming people to get them to stop breaking the law and doing evil things. A Chaotic person however, should object to it (Good/Nuetral/Evil does not matter).
meabolex 09-17-04, 04:54 PM	Unwillingly taking control of and/or manipulating someone's mind through magic (or any other means) is hardly an act of good. At least in the two-dimensional worlds of a game like D&D. I imagine a wizard would willingly take control and/or manipulate someone's unwilling mind through magic. Manipulating someone's mind is essentially what teachers (should) do every day. I'm sure there's plenty of situations where making someone not do something evil would be considered good. Mind control in D&D terms is inherently neutral. Actions define good and evil, not mechanics. Sneak attack isn't evil. Clubbing someone on the head isn't evil. Commiting an evil act is evil. Back to our regularly scheduled thread. . . I would argue yes, but 3.5 has so many stupid rules, I'll refrain from speculating. 3.0 had the same exact rules regarding the protection spells and charm/dominate. Charm is NOT domination. He has no mental control over you whatsoever. All that a Charm spell does is make you consider the caster a friend. The bold sentence and the italicized sentence contradict each other. Making someone do something they normally wouldn't do also sounds like mind control to me. . . and that's just a Charisma check away. And technically, it should be a diplomacy check (just to make you hate the diplomacy people even more). Well, from a rules balance standpoint, it should not be a diplomacy check. It would essentially be domination if that were the case -- a bard's Diplomacy, with proper feats, skills, and equipment, can go through the roof. Perhaps with the -10 for a full-round action diplomacy check -- but that would make it almost impossible for wizards and (to a degree) sorcerers.
Edymnion 09-17-04, 04:56 PM	Lol, if you guys think Charm Person is bad, just read Hypnotism and use your imagination. To help kick start you, I'll point out that the attitude change is permanent and not linked to magic in any way, and to the Fanatical status from the ELH. ;)
meabolex 09-17-04, 05:12 PM	To help kick start you, I'll point out that the attitude change is permanent and not linked to magic in any way, and to the Fanatical status from the ELH. ;) And from the PH: . . .but only with respect to that particular request. So, given the low saving throw, low HD cap, and limitation on the 2-steps-in-attitude-change being for only one request, I don't think it's that bad. If a level 20 barbarian gets charmed out of combat by an ogre mage and loses a Charisma check to have the barbarian attack the party wizard as hard as he can, that's far nastier. Rage, Power Attack 20, possibly dead wizard (assuming admittedly low 52-72 hp and no moment of prescience, etc.). Of course, someone could take a DC 25 sense motive check (instantly easy at level 20 if someone has sense motive) and know the barb is charmed. . . but even that takes a minute (: I guess you'd just have to detect the ogre mage or the spell in the first place (which wouldn't be that hard, but it could happen).
Edymnion 09-17-04, 08:25 PM	Most shopkeeps, town guards, and NPCs are going to be within the HD limit. And your one request only has to be well thought out to make it broken. Hypnotise them to "Trust me". Get them up to Fanatical about trusting you. Then simply say you're going to cast a beneficial spell on them, tell them to trust you so they voluntarily forgo their saving throw, and get their opinion about something else up, like thinking they don't have to charge you so much for something. Or that you're an important person and need defending, or heck, if you do it long enough, you can get an entire city to think that you're a god. Sure, it doesn't work on high level people/monsters, but not everything should require high levels to pull off. A lvl 1 sorcerer, given enough time, could take over towns and cities with this one single spell.
SphericalTime 09-17-04, 08:41 PM	Wow, I just found another favorite spell for my sorcerer.
Edymnion 09-17-04, 08:54 PM	Yup, every time you successfully cast it, you increase their attitude towards you, in regards to that particular request, by 2 steps favorable. The increased attitude remains even when the spell wears off. You just cast it again. In very few castings, you can have them up to Fanatical about your request. And if that first one is something as simple as "Trust me", they will be fanatical about trusting you. You could tell them the sky is purple, they will look up at the blue sky and see purple. Thats the power of the Fanatical standing. After they're fanatical about trusting you, you can essentially tell them anything you want, they'll believe you, and you can hypnotise them day in and day out until they are fanatical about you in every possible regard. Move on to the next person. You take your time, keep things slow, and if somebody makes their save and realises what you're doing, you make sure they "dissappear". Either do it yourself, or have one of your fanatical followers do it for you. It will take you weeks, months even to pull this off, but when you get it, NOTHING can take it away from you. The people are not magically compelled in any way, they will be equally fanatical about you even in an Anti-Magic Field. And the absolute best part of all this? Long as they don't make their saves, they never even realize that they were enspelled in the first place. They think their attitudes towards you were 100% their own doing. Remember kiddies, making somebody blow up is not the true test of power. The true test of power is when you can make someone blow themselves up for you under their own free will. And people thought Haste was broken... :D
Knucklehead 09-18-04, 11:02 AM	3.0 had the same exact rules regarding the protection spells and charm/dominate. Every time I complain about 3.5 rules, people refer me to 3.0 rules. What I should have said was 3.whatever has too many stupid rules. Sorry for the confusion. :D To give you an update, the DM convinced the PC that keeping my PC charmed was not the pratice of a good person. The spell was subsequently dismissed.