Charm Person as Zone of Truth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm Person as Zone of Truth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Komi
10-25-04, 09:25 PM Can a wizard use Charm Person for the same effect of Zone of Truth? It almost seems like it would work better. A person in a ZoT can tiptoe around the truth, but never actually speak a lie. Why would a good friend tell you a lie? It would have to be in your best interest, and since he just met you, he doesn't really know your best interest, so why lie?

My reason for asking is that in Eberron, arcane casters are much easier to come by than divine. Clerics are rare there. But a magewright could specialize in charm person, and it seems like you could use it for the same effect. But since this was a general rules question, I figured I'd post here rather than on the Eberron board.

Thanks,
Komi
Elendur
10-25-04, 09:47 PM If revealing a particular truth put the person in mortal danger, he might lie to you even if you are considered a friend.
bitnine
10-25-04, 09:50 PM Why would a good friend tell you a lie?He wouldn't. Ever.
incubus
10-25-04, 10:08 PM If revealing a particular truth put the person in mortal danger, he might lie to you even if you are considered a friend.

Only if it directly did so. Like, if he says the truth, he dies immediately.

As soon as it's "someone will kill you if you ever reveal this secret", charm person should totally overcome it.
Seeker95
10-25-04, 10:38 PM Sure you can.
But you sacrifice the area effect for a person-targeted attempt.
Beamup
10-25-04, 10:42 PM A charmed person would be unlikely to lie to you, but they certainly wouldn't tell you whatever you wanted to know. They would say "sorry, I can't tell you that" if they have much of a reason. Think about it - would you tell a friend something if you were going to lose your job over it, for example? Very few people would.

So yes, you could get pretty much the same effect as zone of truth. But just because they won't lie doesn't mean they'll answer.
kSquared
10-25-04, 11:09 PM Neither charm person nor zone of truth compel the target to answer; in the case of the latter, they just can't lie. And since it's an area effect, the original caster has no idea if you've made your save. You could really throw the interrogators for a loop if you've got a good Will saving throw. All kinds of fun possibilities. =)
Bloodtide_the_Red
10-25-04, 11:57 PM There is the other side of the freinds coin. While some people may think that freinds are 100% honest and truthful at all times...and maybe in a perfect world that would be true...unfortunetly, in the real world it's exactly the opposite. A true freind is much more likely to lie to you for any number of reasons.

And just take theas twisted examples.......
1.You charm a guy who has, unknown to you...but you have a idea, killed a member of your family. You ask him 'Did you kill her?". As your truest, best freind...he knows that information will hurt you...and also does not want to look bad in your eyes. So what will he do....lie.
2.You charm the guy who has, unknown to you..but you have an idea, stole something from you. You ask 'Did you steal that item?'. Your truest, best freind gets very offended. You have just accused him of stealing(though of course he did), not something a good freind would do.
3.You charm a minion of a powerful bad guy. You ask 'Tell me about him'. This puts your new best freind in a bind. He knows you hate and want to kill the bad guy, and knows you will use anything he tell you to do that...and would fear for your saftey if he told you the truth.

BT
incubus
10-26-04, 01:35 AM Which is all very nice, but then charm person has the added ability that if you succeed on a charisma check against the target you can make him do virtually anything short of killing or injuring himself directly. The example given is getting him to hold off a rampaging red dragon for a few rounds, with the obvious inference that this is obviously likely to kill him.

After that, I think getting him to tell you the truth on a topic would be a walk in the park.
Naeron
10-26-04, 07:56 AM Can a wizard use Charm Person for the same effect of Zone of Truth? It almost seems like it would work better. A person in a ZoT can tiptoe around the truth, but never actually speak a lie. Why would a good friend tell you a lie? It would have to be in your best interest, and since he just met you, he doesn't really know your best interest, so why lie?
<snip>

Thanks,
Komi

Its really a question of degree, under Zone of Truth a person cannot lie even if they want to. Under Charm Person the target can lie but probably will not want to.

However they can still lie, if they wouldn't tell the truth to their real best friend then you would have to win opposed CHA checks to get them not to lie to the person who charmed them. But ordering then to confess in front of the authorities to being the local serial killer (whether true or not) is an obviously harmful order so its one that they will never obey.

Note that they may also lie by confessing to bad things that they haven't done if they think that this will impress their new trusted friend.
Zherog
10-26-04, 11:16 AM A charmed person would be unlikely to lie to you, but they certainly wouldn't tell you whatever you wanted to know. They would say "sorry, I can't tell you that" if they have much of a reason. Think about it - would you tell a friend something if you were going to lose your job over it, for example? Very few people would.

This is a really good example. A portion of my job is classified. I don't even talk to my wife about it. And she's the best friend I have in this world.
Komi
10-26-04, 02:05 PM Here's the specific situation I'm interested in. A group of PCs have the jobs of infiltrating this group ran by this guy called the Lord of Blades.

1) The Lord of Blades wants to know that he can trust all the members he lets in. So he has sorcerers in the group who cast Charm Person to verifying a potential new recruit's loyalty. He uses sorcerers (as opposed to clerics) because:
a. A 1st level sorcerer is vastly easier to come by than a 3rd level cleric (casting Zone of Truth), especially in a world where clerics are rare.
b. A typical 1st level sorcerer can cast 4 Charm Persons per day

So the Lord of Blades has this procedure. Bring in the new recruit and sit him down. Bring in the 1st level sorcerer. The sorcerer explains that he is going to cast a spell and that the new recruit would be wise not to resist. The sorcerer first casts Charm Person. Then he casts Detect Magic to see if the recruit's enchanted. If not, they execute the new recruit. If so, they begin asking questions like, "Why do you want to join the group?" "Are you loyal to any other groups?" "Would you ever do anything to betray us?" "Would you lay down your life for the group?" etc. If he gives satifactory answers, he's clean and start training him. If he gives poor answers, then execute him.

Is this a good way for the Lord of Blades to verify the loyalty of new recruits? First level sorcerers shouldn't be too hard to come by, and each one can cast 4 charm persons each day. So it seems that the group could do this to every new member.

2) Assuming that this is a good strategy for the Lord of Blades, how do the PCs get around this to infiltrate the Lord of Blades' organization? Assume low level PCs but that they know the details of the LoB's interrogation methods.
Beamup
10-26-04, 02:24 PM This would not work. At all. Not in a million years. Being the sorcerer's good friend doesn't imply any loyalty or affection for the Lord of Blades. Under such circumstances, the recruits would absolutely lie and tell the LoB exactly what he wants to hear. Particularly since they know they'll be killed if they don't.

Charm Person can make the recipient unwilling to lie to the caster... but it won't have ANY chance whatsoever of convincing the recipient to commit suicide instead of lie to somebody other than the caster.

Also, not many 1st level Sorcerers will know charm person. Each one you find who does can cast it 4/day... but a priori only about 5% of 1st level Sorcerers will know it, given that they only know 2 1st level spells each and there are 42 PHB spells on their 1st level spell list.

The LoB would find it easier to get clerics, and it would actually stand some faint chance of working, unlike the sorcerers.
Seeker95
10-26-04, 02:46 PM When my friend and I were running a world domination campaign (D&D meets Risk), we just had our officers take a test of loyalty. They were teleported to the middle of the Sea of Dust. If they made it back, they were considered loyal. If they didn't, we didn't care.

I would think the Lord of Blades would want trust to be built on trust.
What easier way to erode trust than to start with an assumption of mistrust?
tarkin
10-26-04, 03:03 PM Friends lie to each other all the time.

If a friend is particularly honest, they will just avoid answering questions.

For example, I personally once worked for a stock broker that had several famous clients (Woody Allen used him before I worked for him.) One of them was of high political interest. I had to sign a confidentiality agreement.

I never told anyone that person's name. Not my father, not my sister, not my girlfriend, not my best friend.

Friendship does not equal infinite trust, nor will it get someone to break an oath/tell a secret.
Zherog
10-26-04, 03:50 PM Also, not many 1st level Sorcerers will know charm person. Each one you find who does can cast it 4/day... but a priori only about 5% of 1st level Sorcerers will know it, given that they only know 2 1st level spells each and there are 42 PHB spells on their 1st level spell list.

Of course, a wand of charm person gets around this - then you can use 1st level sorcerers, wizards and bards. :)
Komi
10-26-04, 05:01 PM Alright, the threat of death for getting the question wrong might be too harsh. Also, keep in mind that the Lord of Blades will likely not even be present during these interviews. It would be the sorcerer (i.e. "trusted friend") asking the questions. Also the sorcerer would have a good charisma, and would have maxed out the Diplomacy skill.

So he would be asking as a friend would ask for the new recruit to tell him his real motivations. And it might even be just the two of them in the room. He would definitely be leveraging the Diplomacy skill. So I would image at best the new recruit would have penalties on his bluff. It's harder to lie to your best friend. Also, if the recruit hides anything ("I'm sorry, I can't answer that"), then the interview is over, the recruit is rejected.

Maybe the sorcerer would play the other side. After charming the recruit, he tells him that he's really working against the Lord of Blades. He wants to know if the recruit will help him out. This might prove effective.

Basically, I'm trying to work out a reliable system using Charm Person for testing loyalty (I liked the wand idea!). And then afterwards, I want to know how a party can get around it. If you have any suggestions, let me know.
Seeker95
10-26-04, 05:33 PM Basically, I'm trying to work out a reliable system using Charm Person for testing loyalty. And then afterwards, I want to know how a party can get around it.Well, there's always testing loyalty with a test.
To get into the thieves' guilds in most campaigns I've seen, you have to steal something.
What does the Lord of Blades require of his followers? Make the party do that.
Let them be as creative as they want in trying to fulfill his request.
Komi
10-26-04, 05:43 PM Well, there's always testing loyalty with a test.
To get into the thieves' guilds in most campaigns I've seen, you have to steal something.
What does the Lord of Blades require of his followers? Make the party do that.
Let them be as creative as they want in trying to fulfill his request.Well there would actually be two parts for the interview process. First to see if the applicant has the necessary skills to help. This is what you're describing. And I would definitely do this. The Lord of Blades has many different needs, and depending on what the applicant's skills are, he would test him appropriately.

The other part of the interview would be to test if the applicant could be trusted. How does the Lord of Blades (and really anyone else in the group) know if the guy is a spy. Clerics are hard to come by, so Zone of Truthing everyone that walks in is impracticle. But if I could come up with a reliable Charm Person loyalty test, then I would have them implement this. In reality, it doesn't even have to be Charm Person. But Charm Person has a lot of nice features and it's only 1st level. So this seemed like the best approach.

EDIT:Seeker95, I just reread your post, and realize that your suggestions was meant as a loyalty test. Like "Kill this person to show me you're loyal" (which might be something this group does). But this approach isn't going to scale well. The group would have to design a new test for each new applicant. And they would have to watch each applicant to make sure he didn't cheat.

I'm trying to design an interview process that's pretty quick and easy to perform. Assuming the applicant makes it past that, there would be trial runs for missions to make sure the new recruits are up to snuff.

Thanks,
Komi
Zherog
10-26-04, 09:17 PM What about using a candle of truth, rather than relying on a a cleric to cast it? Or you could have a wand of zone of truth and a rogue or bard with a decent Use Magic Device modifier. Third level character; high charisma; temporary use of a [i]cloak of charisma +6; etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Komi 10-25-04, 09:25 PM	Can a wizard use Charm Person for the same effect of Zone of Truth? It almost seems like it would work better. A person in a ZoT can tiptoe around the truth, but never actually speak a lie. Why would a good friend tell you a lie? It would have to be in your best interest, and since he just met you, he doesn't really know your best interest, so why lie? My reason for asking is that in Eberron, arcane casters are much easier to come by than divine. Clerics are rare there. But a magewright could specialize in charm person, and it seems like you could use it for the same effect. But since this was a general rules question, I figured I'd post here rather than on the Eberron board. Thanks, Komi
Elendur 10-25-04, 09:47 PM	If revealing a particular truth put the person in mortal danger, he might lie to you even if you are considered a friend.
bitnine 10-25-04, 09:50 PM	Why would a good friend tell you a lie?He wouldn't. Ever.
incubus 10-25-04, 10:08 PM	If revealing a particular truth put the person in mortal danger, he might lie to you even if you are considered a friend. Only if it directly did so. Like, if he says the truth, he dies immediately. As soon as it's "someone will kill you if you ever reveal this secret", charm person should totally overcome it.
Seeker95 10-25-04, 10:38 PM	Sure you can. But you sacrifice the area effect for a person-targeted attempt.
Beamup 10-25-04, 10:42 PM	A charmed person would be unlikely to lie to you, but they certainly wouldn't tell you whatever you wanted to know. They would say "sorry, I can't tell you that" if they have much of a reason. Think about it - would you tell a friend something if you were going to lose your job over it, for example? Very few people would. So yes, you could get pretty much the same effect as zone of truth. But just because they won't lie doesn't mean they'll answer.
kSquared 10-25-04, 11:09 PM	Neither charm person nor zone of truth compel the target to answer; in the case of the latter, they just can't lie. And since it's an area effect, the original caster has no idea if you've made your save. You could really throw the interrogators for a loop if you've got a good Will saving throw. All kinds of fun possibilities. =)
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-25-04, 11:57 PM	There is the other side of the freinds coin. While some people may think that freinds are 100% honest and truthful at all times...and maybe in a perfect world that would be true...unfortunetly, in the real world it's exactly the opposite. A true freind is much more likely to lie to you for any number of reasons. And just take theas twisted examples....... 1.You charm a guy who has, unknown to you...but you have a idea, killed a member of your family. You ask him 'Did you kill her?". As your truest, best freind...he knows that information will hurt you...and also does not want to look bad in your eyes. So what will he do....lie. 2.You charm the guy who has, unknown to you..but you have an idea, stole something from you. You ask 'Did you steal that item?'. Your truest, best freind gets very offended. You have just accused him of stealing(though of course he did), not something a good freind would do. 3.You charm a minion of a powerful bad guy. You ask 'Tell me about him'. This puts your new best freind in a bind. He knows you hate and want to kill the bad guy, and knows you will use anything he tell you to do that...and would fear for your saftey if he told you the truth. BT
incubus 10-26-04, 01:35 AM	Which is all very nice, but then charm person has the added ability that if you succeed on a charisma check against the target you can make him do virtually anything short of killing or injuring himself directly. The example given is getting him to hold off a rampaging red dragon for a few rounds, with the obvious inference that this is obviously likely to kill him. After that, I think getting him to tell you the truth on a topic would be a walk in the park.
Naeron 10-26-04, 07:56 AM	Can a wizard use Charm Person for the same effect of Zone of Truth? It almost seems like it would work better. A person in a ZoT can tiptoe around the truth, but never actually speak a lie. Why would a good friend tell you a lie? It would have to be in your best interest, and since he just met you, he doesn't really know your best interest, so why lie? <snip> Thanks, Komi Its really a question of degree, under Zone of Truth a person cannot lie even if they want to. Under Charm Person the target can lie but probably will not want to. However they can still lie, if they wouldn't tell the truth to their real best friend then you would have to win opposed CHA checks to get them not to lie to the person who charmed them. But ordering then to confess in front of the authorities to being the local serial killer (whether true or not) is an obviously harmful order so its one that they will never obey. Note that they may also lie by confessing to bad things that they haven't done if they think that this will impress their new trusted friend.
Zherog 10-26-04, 11:16 AM	A charmed person would be unlikely to lie to you, but they certainly wouldn't tell you whatever you wanted to know. They would say "sorry, I can't tell you that" if they have much of a reason. Think about it - would you tell a friend something if you were going to lose your job over it, for example? Very few people would. This is a really good example. A portion of my job is classified. I don't even talk to my wife about it. And she's the best friend I have in this world.
Komi 10-26-04, 02:05 PM	Here's the specific situation I'm interested in. A group of PCs have the jobs of infiltrating this group ran by this guy called the Lord of Blades. 1) The Lord of Blades wants to know that he can trust all the members he lets in. So he has sorcerers in the group who cast Charm Person to verifying a potential new recruit's loyalty. He uses sorcerers (as opposed to clerics) because: a. A 1st level sorcerer is vastly easier to come by than a 3rd level cleric (casting Zone of Truth), especially in a world where clerics are rare. b. A typical 1st level sorcerer can cast 4 Charm Persons per day So the Lord of Blades has this procedure. Bring in the new recruit and sit him down. Bring in the 1st level sorcerer. The sorcerer explains that he is going to cast a spell and that the new recruit would be wise not to resist. The sorcerer first casts Charm Person. Then he casts Detect Magic to see if the recruit's enchanted. If not, they execute the new recruit. If so, they begin asking questions like, "Why do you want to join the group?" "Are you loyal to any other groups?" "Would you ever do anything to betray us?" "Would you lay down your life for the group?" etc. If he gives satifactory answers, he's clean and start training him. If he gives poor answers, then execute him. Is this a good way for the Lord of Blades to verify the loyalty of new recruits? First level sorcerers shouldn't be too hard to come by, and each one can cast 4 charm persons each day. So it seems that the group could do this to every new member. 2) Assuming that this is a good strategy for the Lord of Blades, how do the PCs get around this to infiltrate the Lord of Blades' organization? Assume low level PCs but that they know the details of the LoB's interrogation methods.
Beamup 10-26-04, 02:24 PM	This would not work. At all. Not in a million years. Being the sorcerer's good friend doesn't imply any loyalty or affection for the Lord of Blades. Under such circumstances, the recruits would absolutely lie and tell the LoB exactly what he wants to hear. Particularly since they know they'll be killed if they don't. Charm Person can make the recipient unwilling to lie to the caster... but it won't have ANY chance whatsoever of convincing the recipient to commit suicide instead of lie to somebody other than the caster. Also, not many 1st level Sorcerers will know charm person. Each one you find who does can cast it 4/day... but a priori only about 5% of 1st level Sorcerers will know it, given that they only know 2 1st level spells each and there are 42 PHB spells on their 1st level spell list. The LoB would find it easier to get clerics, and it would actually stand some faint chance of working, unlike the sorcerers.
Seeker95 10-26-04, 02:46 PM	When my friend and I were running a world domination campaign (D&D meets Risk), we just had our officers take a test of loyalty. They were teleported to the middle of the Sea of Dust. If they made it back, they were considered loyal. If they didn't, we didn't care. I would think the Lord of Blades would want trust to be built on trust. What easier way to erode trust than to start with an assumption of mistrust?
tarkin 10-26-04, 03:03 PM	Friends lie to each other all the time. If a friend is particularly honest, they will just avoid answering questions. For example, I personally once worked for a stock broker that had several famous clients (Woody Allen used him before I worked for him.) One of them was of high political interest. I had to sign a confidentiality agreement. I never told anyone that person's name. Not my father, not my sister, not my girlfriend, not my best friend. Friendship does not equal infinite trust, nor will it get someone to break an oath/tell a secret.
Zherog 10-26-04, 03:50 PM	Also, not many 1st level Sorcerers will know charm person. Each one you find who does can cast it 4/day... but a priori only about 5% of 1st level Sorcerers will know it, given that they only know 2 1st level spells each and there are 42 PHB spells on their 1st level spell list. Of course, a wand of charm person gets around this - then you can use 1st level sorcerers, wizards and bards. :)
Komi 10-26-04, 05:01 PM	Alright, the threat of death for getting the question wrong might be too harsh. Also, keep in mind that the Lord of Blades will likely not even be present during these interviews. It would be the sorcerer (i.e. "trusted friend") asking the questions. Also the sorcerer would have a good charisma, and would have maxed out the Diplomacy skill. So he would be asking as a friend would ask for the new recruit to tell him his real motivations. And it might even be just the two of them in the room. He would definitely be leveraging the Diplomacy skill. So I would image at best the new recruit would have penalties on his bluff. It's harder to lie to your best friend. Also, if the recruit hides anything ("I'm sorry, I can't answer that"), then the interview is over, the recruit is rejected. Maybe the sorcerer would play the other side. After charming the recruit, he tells him that he's really working against the Lord of Blades. He wants to know if the recruit will help him out. This might prove effective. Basically, I'm trying to work out a reliable system using Charm Person for testing loyalty (I liked the wand idea!). And then afterwards, I want to know how a party can get around it. If you have any suggestions, let me know.
Seeker95 10-26-04, 05:33 PM	Basically, I'm trying to work out a reliable system using Charm Person for testing loyalty. And then afterwards, I want to know how a party can get around it.Well, there's always testing loyalty with a test. To get into the thieves' guilds in most campaigns I've seen, you have to steal something. What does the Lord of Blades require of his followers? Make the party do that. Let them be as creative as they want in trying to fulfill his request.
Komi 10-26-04, 05:43 PM	Well, there's always testing loyalty with a test. To get into the thieves' guilds in most campaigns I've seen, you have to steal something. What does the Lord of Blades require of his followers? Make the party do that. Let them be as creative as they want in trying to fulfill his request.Well there would actually be two parts for the interview process. First to see if the applicant has the necessary skills to help. This is what you're describing. And I would definitely do this. The Lord of Blades has many different needs, and depending on what the applicant's skills are, he would test him appropriately. The other part of the interview would be to test if the applicant could be trusted. How does the Lord of Blades (and really anyone else in the group) know if the guy is a spy. Clerics are hard to come by, so Zone of Truthing everyone that walks in is impracticle. But if I could come up with a reliable Charm Person loyalty test, then I would have them implement this. In reality, it doesn't even have to be Charm Person. But Charm Person has a lot of nice features and it's only 1st level. So this seemed like the best approach. EDIT:Seeker95, I just reread your post, and realize that your suggestions was meant as a loyalty test. Like "Kill this person to show me you're loyal" (which might be something this group does). But this approach isn't going to scale well. The group would have to design a new test for each new applicant. And they would have to watch each applicant to make sure he didn't cheat. I'm trying to design an interview process that's pretty quick and easy to perform. Assuming the applicant makes it past that, there would be trial runs for missions to make sure the new recruits are up to snuff. Thanks, Komi
Zherog 10-26-04, 09:17 PM	What about using a candle of truth, rather than relying on a a cleric to cast it? Or you could have a wand of zone of truth and a rogue or bard with a decent Use Magic Device modifier. Third level character; high charisma; temporary use of a [i]cloak of charisma +6; etc.