'Charm Person' + Diplomacy = friends forever? [Archive] - Wizards Community

'Charm Person' + Diplomacy = friends forever? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicholas the Paladin
08-31-06, 02:33 AM Hi,

I encountered some threads that stated, that when a succesfull combo of the spell 'charm person' and an succesfull diplomacy-check is made, you can make a long term friend from even a potential enemy.

the mechanic is simple: Charm Person makes a person 'friendly' towards you. After that, when you make a succesfull diplomacy-check you can make it 'helpfull' ...and thus usable for (for instance) a bodyguard.

I'm (pretty much) okay with the idea that when a person is 'helpfull' you can even make a bodyguard from the badguy that you met earlier in the dungeon.

The thing is, that 'charm person ' only has a duration of 1 hour/level: other posters (to my knowledge) 'assumed' that 'charm person' has a set duration, but a person that has been charmed by 'diplomacy' can (if treated well) be your friend indefinitely.

Wil the person be 'helpfull' after the spell 'charm person' has ended?

What are your thoughts about this?
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-31-06, 02:48 AM I think when the spell ends, the subject's attitude toward the caster becomes whatever it would normally be given the circumstances (not whatever it was beforehand, if there's a difference).

For example, a subject who starts off indifferent and hates to be enchanted, will probably downgrade to unfriendly or even hostile when the charm wears off, assuming he's aware he was charmed before.

A subject that starts off hostile due to a case of mistaken identity, charmed into breaking off the attack long enough for the caster to explain himself, and not otherwise influenced or asked for anything, might upgrade to unfriendly or indifferent after the spell wears off. (The subject may even go as far as friendly, if the caster offers to aid the subject with pursuit of his real enemies, and follows through.)

In any case I think the ultimate result of the spell ending depends on the personality of the subject and how the caster treated it.
AntiDjinn
08-31-06, 04:47 AM Charm Person and Diplomacy are both going to be heavily influenced by roleplay and circumstance. How you treat someone while charmed is going to weigh heavily on how he feels after the effect wears off. If you have been using him as a meatshield then he is going to resent you after he realizes that you haven't been a friend at all (haven't we all had friendships so south like that?).

Presumably the characters who comprise your party are friends, yet they didn't have to use Charm Person or Diplomacy on each other to get this status. In any given population there will be many groups of associates who enjoy each other's company and are bound by affection, admiration, or simple familiarity. There may be others who fight and bicker yet still inexplicably keep each other's company. There are too many friends to be explained by spells or skill at political spinning so there must be other factors at work.

If your actions toward the subject have been worthy of actual friendship then he might remain a friend even if he finds out you charmed him, just as real world friends may find out you were responsible for some previous mishap in their lives and still manage to like you.
Seeker95
08-31-06, 09:23 AM If you play it right, the answer is yes... friend for life. The subject is going to remember what you did during the duration of the spell. This may affect what its spell-ended feelings toward you may be.
Nicholas the Paladin
08-31-06, 09:44 AM If you play it right, the answer is yes... friend for life. The subject is going to remember what you did during the duration of the spell. This may affect what its spell-ended feelings toward you may be.
I have reservations to this; it doesn't take into account that you might deal with a person that has a very nasty personality.

Does a CE Orc (in case of Charm Monster) or a NE imposter have a sense of 'friendship.'.... well, you just don't know (very likely a DM's call).

But don't get me wrong, I understand the point.
CryoSilver
08-31-06, 10:02 AM Evil creatures can certainly have friends and companionship, much the same way they are fully capable of feeling love.
HaikenEdge
08-31-06, 10:28 AM Unless they be sociopathic.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-31-06, 10:32 AM a CE Orc (in case of Charm Monster)
You don't need Charm Monster for orcs. Orcs are humanoids and just as susceptible to Charm Person as humans are.
Nicholas the Paladin
08-31-06, 10:55 AM Evil creatures can certainly have friends and companionship, much the same way they are fully capable of feeling love. I shouldn't have put orcs down, that was uncalled for ;)

I agree that Evil creatures shouldn't be stereotyped (for Gawd's sake, what am I saying....it's D&D !)
kaor
08-31-06, 01:05 PM What happens when you charm someone with spellcraft?

If Mr. Wizard can see you casting the spell, and id's what it is...

What a great guy, how odd that he was just casting charm person, and I didn't like him until just now.

Something's wrong, I just can't put my finger on it. A genius intellect too, go figure.
Seeker95
08-31-06, 01:23 PM I have reservations to this; it doesn't take into account that you might deal with a person that has a very nasty personality.Sure it does.

"If you play it right"
"This may affect"

It takes into account the possibility, not inevitability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 08-31-06, 02:33 AM	Hi, I encountered some threads that stated, that when a succesfull combo of the spell 'charm person' and an succesfull diplomacy-check is made, you can make a long term friend from even a potential enemy. the mechanic is simple: Charm Person makes a person 'friendly' towards you. After that, when you make a succesfull diplomacy-check you can make it 'helpfull' ...and thus usable for (for instance) a bodyguard. I'm (pretty much) okay with the idea that when a person is 'helpfull' you can even make a bodyguard from the badguy that you met earlier in the dungeon. The thing is, that 'charm person ' only has a duration of 1 hour/level: other posters (to my knowledge) 'assumed' that 'charm person' has a set duration, but a person that has been charmed by 'diplomacy' can (if treated well) be your friend indefinitely. Wil the person be 'helpfull' after the spell 'charm person' has ended? What are your thoughts about this?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-31-06, 02:48 AM	I think when the spell ends, the subject's attitude toward the caster becomes whatever it would normally be given the circumstances (not whatever it was beforehand, if there's a difference). For example, a subject who starts off indifferent and hates to be enchanted, will probably downgrade to unfriendly or even hostile when the charm wears off, assuming he's aware he was charmed before. A subject that starts off hostile due to a case of mistaken identity, charmed into breaking off the attack long enough for the caster to explain himself, and not otherwise influenced or asked for anything, might upgrade to unfriendly or indifferent after the spell wears off. (The subject may even go as far as friendly, if the caster offers to aid the subject with pursuit of his real enemies, and follows through.) In any case I think the ultimate result of the spell ending depends on the personality of the subject and how the caster treated it.
AntiDjinn 08-31-06, 04:47 AM	Charm Person and Diplomacy are both going to be heavily influenced by roleplay and circumstance. How you treat someone while charmed is going to weigh heavily on how he feels after the effect wears off. If you have been using him as a meatshield then he is going to resent you after he realizes that you haven't been a friend at all (haven't we all had friendships so south like that?). Presumably the characters who comprise your party are friends, yet they didn't have to use Charm Person or Diplomacy on each other to get this status. In any given population there will be many groups of associates who enjoy each other's company and are bound by affection, admiration, or simple familiarity. There may be others who fight and bicker yet still inexplicably keep each other's company. There are too many friends to be explained by spells or skill at political spinning so there must be other factors at work. If your actions toward the subject have been worthy of actual friendship then he might remain a friend even if he finds out you charmed him, just as real world friends may find out you were responsible for some previous mishap in their lives and still manage to like you.
Seeker95 08-31-06, 09:23 AM	If you play it right, the answer is yes... friend for life. The subject is going to remember what you did during the duration of the spell. This may affect what its spell-ended feelings toward you may be.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-31-06, 09:44 AM	If you play it right, the answer is yes... friend for life. The subject is going to remember what you did during the duration of the spell. This may affect what its spell-ended feelings toward you may be. I have reservations to this; it doesn't take into account that you might deal with a person that has a very nasty personality. Does a CE Orc (in case of Charm Monster) or a NE imposter have a sense of 'friendship.'.... well, you just don't know (very likely a DM's call). But don't get me wrong, I understand the point.
CryoSilver 08-31-06, 10:02 AM	Evil creatures can certainly have friends and companionship, much the same way they are fully capable of feeling love.
HaikenEdge 08-31-06, 10:28 AM	Unless they be sociopathic.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-31-06, 10:32 AM	a CE Orc (in case of Charm Monster) You don't need Charm Monster for orcs. Orcs are humanoids and just as susceptible to Charm Person as humans are.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-31-06, 10:55 AM	Evil creatures can certainly have friends and companionship, much the same way they are fully capable of feeling love. I shouldn't have put orcs down, that was uncalled for ;) I agree that Evil creatures shouldn't be stereotyped (for Gawd's sake, what am I saying....it's D&D !)
kaor 08-31-06, 01:05 PM	What happens when you charm someone with spellcraft? If Mr. Wizard can see you casting the spell, and id's what it is... What a great guy, how odd that he was just casting charm person, and I didn't like him until just now. Something's wrong, I just can't put my finger on it. A genius intellect too, go figure.
Seeker95 08-31-06, 01:23 PM	I have reservations to this; it doesn't take into account that you might deal with a person that has a very nasty personality.Sure it does. "If you play it right" "This may affect" It takes into account the possibility, not inevitability.