Charm person in combat situations? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm person in combat situations? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suin Bahhar
05-16-07, 11:28 PM Does this even work?

Wizard(init 12) is in melee with Bandit1 (init 14)and Bandit2(init 8)
Bandit1 attacks wizard;
Wizard casts charm person on Bandit2 (fails save), says as free action protect me from bandit1
Bandit2 attacks Bandit1

Or is dominate person required her as the bandit2 still wants to protect Bandit1 (his friend) as well.
Nom
05-17-07, 03:33 AM It's hard to tell explicitly from the spell. B2 thinks of wiz as a "good friend", and perceives her words and actions in the most favourable way. It does allow the wiz to give B2 orders with an opposed Cha check, but won't do anything obviously harmful.

I don't think it's within the scope and spirit of the spell to convince B2 to attack B1 in any lethal manner or for B2 to actively risk injury defending the wizard, but B2 would be inclined to prevent B1 from attacking B2's new friend.

Note that bandit 2 gets a +5 save if the wizard is doing anything vaguely threatening.
Frogmantis
05-17-07, 03:49 AM well, i think it would depend a lot on the type of creature charmed, and the DM. An orc might outright attack the other orc bandit, especially if they were fighting over something earlier or whatever. humans, they might see reason in the situation, and just try to prevent the other bandit from attacking. either way, its magic here. he's now considered friendly, even if he might normally not. so if your friend is being attacked by your friend, what would you do?
Vaelan
05-17-07, 04:07 AM The spell inflicts the Friendly attitude upon them. A Friendly person will not take risks to help you. This could very well mean fighting you if the person feels pressured to do so.
Frogmantis
05-17-07, 04:28 AM regardless, it says you could use a charisma check to get them to do something they normally wouldn't do. defending a friend is something that they might or might not normally do; regardless, its easily possible within the limits of the spell.
Seeker95
05-17-07, 07:53 AM If one of your friends told you to protect him from another of your friends, how would you react?
If you saw one of your friends about to kill another of your friends, how would you react?

That's what the spell does. Turns someone into your friend. They will react as if you were their friend. It does not change their relationship with other folks.

In your bandit example, you (the caster) will definitely gain the elimination of flanking. Your new bandit friend will not attack you. Your new bandit friend might "aid another" in your defense. I doubt your new bandit friend will attack his long time bandit friend.
Taluron
05-17-07, 09:05 AM There seems to be the assumption here that the bandits are friends.

If they are, then everything is as said.

If they aren't...

Neutral to one another (working together out of convenience, say) then the situation would be little different.

Unfriendly to one another. Maybe 1 consistently cheats at cards, or 2 'thinks' he cheats at cards (because your friend the wizard points out this to 2)... Etc.

I once got a hill giant to leave combat after charming him by pointing behind him and letting him know that "those goblins are stealing your gold!" (The hill giant was a mercenary in an army of orcs/goblins)
Seeker95
05-17-07, 11:14 AM Taluron, good points all around.
BW0222
05-17-07, 11:17 AM Suin Bahhar

Wizard casts charm person on Bandit2 (fails save), says as free action protect me from bandit1
Bandit2 attacks Bandit1

No.

First, bandit 2 gets a will save at +5 because your group is obviously threatening or attacking him.

Second, "An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, ..." So, the bandit is not going to just enter combat on your behalf.

Now, he could try...
a) Asking his friend to stand down,
b) Calling for a truce, i.e. "You put your weapons away and we'll pull back."
c) Asking his friend to spare your life. i.e. subdual.
d) He might step between you, say "Leave him alone" and go to total defensive or something.
e) If he was significantly more powerful than bandit 1, he might grapple his friend, disarm him, or otherwise take some action which won't harm his buddy, and wouldn't put him in too much risk.

Even an opposed charisma check will not make someone obey suicidal or risky actions. He can consider any consequence of his actions and it is the DMs job to decide on whether an action runs serious risks. For example, bandit 2 likely knows that attacking his 'friend' could get him killed or have the other bandits in his group getting him killed. He might consider that fact that other PCs are saying "Kill them" and that he might be killed also.

The opposed charisma check would be for things which don't put him in risk or are suicidal, yet he still wouldn't want to do. Directions to the bandit camp, give me your sword, what are these potions, etc. Although the first might be suicidal if he thinks that they would know that he told you.

However, you can cloak your words in more convincing language to eliminate or hide risks. Examples:

"Tell your friend to lower his weapons and we'll talk."

"Keep your friend off of me and I'll put him to sleep. I don't want to have to kill him." -- Now, bandit 2 might actually think he is helping his friend and won't be subject to attacks and/or future reprisals.

"Tackle your friend so we can split his loot. Your leaders don't have to know." Assuming the bandits aren't that friendly, bandit 2 might conclude that this isn't a bad idea.

Or is dominate person required her as the bandit2 still wants to protect Bandit1 (his friend) as well.

There are two issues:

First, is the order suicidal or risky? No one will obey such and order under a charm spell.

Second, is it normally something he won't do? That would require an opposed charisma check.

You merely need to ask yourself each of these questions. The first, is typically personal risk. The second, typically covers risk to friends. Now, players can go a long way in phrasing orders which are less likely to be perceived as either.
Lixith
05-18-07, 03:49 AM I'd say BW0222 had a good idea with the grappling thing, that's what i was thinking.
Maybe he'd grapple the other bandit, and a fight between them might ensue from that, if the non-enchanted bandit hit him. But an outright attack seems out of bounds.
Fireclave
05-18-07, 04:15 AM It's already been established that Charm Person only makes the target consider you as a trusted friend, so exactly how Bandit2 will react will depend on what is ask, how it is asked, and how Bandit2 feels about Bandit1. But here's another thing to think about: How does Bandit2 normally treat his trusted friends in general? A CE, Belkar-minded bandit might put very little value in friendship and might not give a second to turning on his friends (maybe even just for kicks). It would be rare to come across someone who would turn against their long-time trusted friends at the drop of a hat in favor of a "trusted friend" they just met, but in a world with living personifications of evil, I'm sure this type of situation may come up eventually.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 05-16-07, 11:28 PM	Does this even work? Wizard(init 12) is in melee with Bandit1 (init 14)and Bandit2(init 8) Bandit1 attacks wizard; Wizard casts charm person on Bandit2 (fails save), says as free action protect me from bandit1 Bandit2 attacks Bandit1 Or is dominate person required her as the bandit2 still wants to protect Bandit1 (his friend) as well.
Nom 05-17-07, 03:33 AM	It's hard to tell explicitly from the spell. B2 thinks of wiz as a "good friend", and perceives her words and actions in the most favourable way. It does allow the wiz to give B2 orders with an opposed Cha check, but won't do anything obviously harmful. I don't think it's within the scope and spirit of the spell to convince B2 to attack B1 in any lethal manner or for B2 to actively risk injury defending the wizard, but B2 would be inclined to prevent B1 from attacking B2's new friend. Note that bandit 2 gets a +5 save if the wizard is doing anything vaguely threatening.
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 03:49 AM	well, i think it would depend a lot on the type of creature charmed, and the DM. An orc might outright attack the other orc bandit, especially if they were fighting over something earlier or whatever. humans, they might see reason in the situation, and just try to prevent the other bandit from attacking. either way, its magic here. he's now considered friendly, even if he might normally not. so if your friend is being attacked by your friend, what would you do?
Vaelan 05-17-07, 04:07 AM	The spell inflicts the Friendly attitude upon them. A Friendly person will not take risks to help you. This could very well mean fighting you if the person feels pressured to do so.
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 04:28 AM	regardless, it says you could use a charisma check to get them to do something they normally wouldn't do. defending a friend is something that they might or might not normally do; regardless, its easily possible within the limits of the spell.
Seeker95 05-17-07, 07:53 AM	If one of your friends told you to protect him from another of your friends, how would you react? If you saw one of your friends about to kill another of your friends, how would you react? That's what the spell does. Turns someone into your friend. They will react as if you were their friend. It does not change their relationship with other folks. In your bandit example, you (the caster) will definitely gain the elimination of flanking. Your new bandit friend will not attack you. Your new bandit friend might "aid another" in your defense. I doubt your new bandit friend will attack his long time bandit friend.
Taluron 05-17-07, 09:05 AM	There seems to be the assumption here that the bandits are friends. If they are, then everything is as said. If they aren't... Neutral to one another (working together out of convenience, say) then the situation would be little different. Unfriendly to one another. Maybe 1 consistently cheats at cards, or 2 'thinks' he cheats at cards (because your friend the wizard points out this to 2)... Etc. I once got a hill giant to leave combat after charming him by pointing behind him and letting him know that "those goblins are stealing your gold!" (The hill giant was a mercenary in an army of orcs/goblins)
Seeker95 05-17-07, 11:14 AM	Taluron, good points all around.
BW0222 05-17-07, 11:17 AM	Suin Bahhar Wizard casts charm person on Bandit2 (fails save), says as free action protect me from bandit1 Bandit2 attacks Bandit1 No. First, bandit 2 gets a will save at +5 because your group is obviously threatening or attacking him. Second, "An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, ..." So, the bandit is not going to just enter combat on your behalf. Now, he could try... a) Asking his friend to stand down, b) Calling for a truce, i.e. "You put your weapons away and we'll pull back." c) Asking his friend to spare your life. i.e. subdual. d) He might step between you, say "Leave him alone" and go to total defensive or something. e) If he was significantly more powerful than bandit 1, he might grapple his friend, disarm him, or otherwise take some action which won't harm his buddy, and wouldn't put him in too much risk. Even an opposed charisma check will not make someone obey suicidal or risky actions. He can consider any consequence of his actions and it is the DMs job to decide on whether an action runs serious risks. For example, bandit 2 likely knows that attacking his 'friend' could get him killed or have the other bandits in his group getting him killed. He might consider that fact that other PCs are saying "Kill them" and that he might be killed also. The opposed charisma check would be for things which don't put him in risk or are suicidal, yet he still wouldn't want to do. Directions to the bandit camp, give me your sword, what are these potions, etc. Although the first might be suicidal if he thinks that they would know that he told you. However, you can cloak your words in more convincing language to eliminate or hide risks. Examples: "Tell your friend to lower his weapons and we'll talk." "Keep your friend off of me and I'll put him to sleep. I don't want to have to kill him." -- Now, bandit 2 might actually think he is helping his friend and won't be subject to attacks and/or future reprisals. "Tackle your friend so we can split his loot. Your leaders don't have to know." Assuming the bandits aren't that friendly, bandit 2 might conclude that this isn't a bad idea. Or is dominate person required her as the bandit2 still wants to protect Bandit1 (his friend) as well. There are two issues: First, is the order suicidal or risky? No one will obey such and order under a charm spell. Second, is it normally something he won't do? That would require an opposed charisma check. You merely need to ask yourself each of these questions. The first, is typically personal risk. The second, typically covers risk to friends. Now, players can go a long way in phrasing orders which are less likely to be perceived as either.
Lixith 05-18-07, 03:49 AM	I'd say BW0222 had a good idea with the grappling thing, that's what i was thinking. Maybe he'd grapple the other bandit, and a fight between them might ensue from that, if the non-enchanted bandit hit him. But an outright attack seems out of bounds.
Fireclave 05-18-07, 04:15 AM	It's already been established that Charm Person only makes the target consider you as a trusted friend, so exactly how Bandit2 will react will depend on what is ask, how it is asked, and how Bandit2 feels about Bandit1. But here's another thing to think about: How does Bandit2 normally treat his trusted friends in general? A CE, Belkar-minded bandit might put very little value in friendship and might not give a second to turning on his friends (maybe even just for kicks). It would be rare to come across someone who would turn against their long-time trusted friends at the drop of a hat in favor of a "trusted friend" they just met, but in a world with living personifications of evil, I'm sure this type of situation may come up eventually.