Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clafferty 02-11-04, 04:29 AM	I have some questions regarding various scenarios and using Charm Person that involve the following PHB text: "If the creature is currently being threatened by you or your allies, however, he receives a +5 bonus on his saving throw". Now, maybe this is a dumb question, but specifically, what is considered "threatened"? Will any target who is in a hostile state considered threatened automatically? Does this apply only to targets who are being actively threatened? Does this apply when the target is actually the one initiating the hostilities and the target has not yet engaged the party? Does it matter if the party has readied themselves into a defensive position? Will a target be considered threatened automatically if one of his allies is threatened? If one of his allies is being attacked, and he retreats but is not pursued, is he still threatened? Can they be "threatened" based purely on their emotional state, (i.e. feel "threatened", even though nobody is actively "threatening" them)? If the target is overly paranoid, and *believes* that the wizard will do him harm (even though the wizard has not explicitely made any threats). Please consider the following scenarios and comment on whether the target NPC would be considered "threatened" in each: 1) A group of 4 hostile bandits are charging at your party. The PC's are surprised and do not yet have weapons drawn, and the wizard casts charm person on one of the 4 bandits. 2) The exact same situation as number 1, except the party drew weapons and are ready and waiting for the charging bandits. 3) A group of 4 hostile soldiers are engaged in combat with the party. Suddenly 3 more soldiers come into sight from the north and and are charging from 100 feet away toward the battle to aid the first 4 soldiers. While the rest of the party has their attention turned to the 4 original soldiers, the wizard attempts to charm one of the 3 advancing new soldiers. 4) A party has just defeated 4 hostile soldiers. 5 more soldiers come from the north, surprising the party. The party still has their weapons drawn still and the 5 soldiers are charging them from 100 feet away. The wizard attempts to charm one of the advancing soldiers. 5) There is a large horse drawn wagon with 2 men on the wagon, and 2 guards following it. A warrior within the party rushes forward towards them with weapons drawn. Immediately, the 2 men on the wagon urge the horses forward and attempt to flee. The soldiers engage the charging warrior. As the fight continues, the wagon pulls away 75 feet. At this time, the wizards steps out and attempts to charm the driver of the wagon. 6) A particularly imposing sorceror is trying to interrogate a prisoner. The sorceror is the one that captured him and tied him up. He has obviously threatened him before this during their battle, but currently isn't doing anything particularly threatening. He simply is asking questions. He prisoner resists, so he casts Charm Person on the prisoner. 7) Same as 6, except the Sorceror tells him that if he does not give him the information he will kill him. When he still doesn't talk, he then casts Charm Person. Forgive me if these are foolish questions, but I feel that "threatened" isn't defined clearly enough in game terms and would like some additional thoughts and intepretations.
Sproik 02-11-04, 04:55 AM	I would say in every single one of your examples the subject gets a +5 bonus to the save. A 'threatening' situation is any in which confrontation is implied. If you were to cast a Charm Person on a blacksmith who is haggling with you, he does not get the +5. Similarly, a local militiaman walking past you on patrol gets no save bonus.
clafferty 02-11-04, 05:44 AM	Taking what you have said, consider this far-fetched and extreme example. There exists a famous kind-hearted wizard who is known to be a complete pacifist. In addition, he is crippled and is sitting in a chari. An evil thug charges into the room and decides to attack the crippled wizard, just because he hates his goody-goody outlook. The wizard attempts to cast charm person. Or a similar example, except a normal wizard is tied up and being interogated. The interogater does not realize that the wizard has feats that allow him to cast a quickened Charm Person with no somatics. When the thug is tired of the wizard not cooperating, the wizard casts charm person before the thug reaches him carrying a knife (intending to kill the wizard). In these situation, there are certainly confrontations, even though other than the charm person spell, the wizard is completely helpless. Would a threatened and helpless wizard still be considered to threaten the thug? Or what if you used charm person on a surrendered opponent? If you accept his surrender, but still are guarding him, would that mean that he would get the +5 bonus too as he has armed guards to make sure he doesn't try to do anything to harm the party? It just seems to me that if all of these situations grant them a +5 bonus, then only people you'd want to use it against were people who were "Unfriendly, people you don't expect to see again, or people you just don't care how they'll see you next time. Charming a hostile is unlikely. Charming someone who is unfriendly will make them friendly for a while. After the spell wears off, they will likely resent having the spell cast on them. They will go back to being unfriendly, or perhaps become hostile. Charming someone who is indifferent will likely result in them being friendly as well, but again, this will probably lead to them being unfriendly or hostile later. I would *never* try to use charm on someone who was at least indifferent to me unless I didn't care about "burning that bridge" with them. I would much rather try Diplomacy, bribery, gifts, and what not. Charming friendly or helpful people would never be needed. It just seems to me that with these intepretations, it seems to be an overly limted spell. I just have trouble with the intepretation that being threatened implies that you automatically are threatening back. Thanks for your input!
Sproik 02-11-04, 05:55 AM	In th examples you present, I'd give the subjects the +5. Yes, it is pretty useless in a fight, and I should hope so too! If it wasn't, it turns an enemy into an ally mid-combat, which is grossly powerful. Given the spell is 1st level, I actually find it to be one of the most powerful effects in the game. Being able to make someone treat you as their trusted friend? Potentially priceless. Even if it is only temporary! It is true that you wouldn't want to use the spell on someone who you expected to be a long-term contact; if you think of the charm spell as a kind of con or scam, then you can put it into context for social use. And unlike using Bluff / Diplomacy, you don't need to depend on your own people skills or a convoluted deception - they're just your new friend.
clafferty 02-11-04, 05:58 AM	Oh, and to clarify... I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. I'm really curious what other people think on this. Admittedly, I'm hoping at least one person agrees with me.... ;) but all input is appreciated. If I were to make the call, I would say give a bonus to 2, 4, and probably 7. I wouldn't give a bonus to 1, 3, 5, 6.
clafferty 02-11-04, 06:27 AM	Originally posted by Sproik Yes, it is pretty useless in a fight, and I should hope so too! If it wasn't, it turns an enemy into an ally mid-combat, which is grossly powerful. But it doesn't turn an enemy into an ally. It would turn an enemy into a friendly non-enemy. By being of the attitude friendly, that means he won't attack you, and will offer you "limited help". He will NOT take risks to aid you without a DC 20+ Diplomacy check to raise his attitude to helpful. And if I recall correctly, using diplomacy takes an entire minute (10 combat rounds), unles you take a -10 penalty to the check to rush diplomacy.
Sproik 02-11-04, 06:47 AM	Originally posted by clafferty But it doesn't turn an enemy into an ally. It would turn an enemy into a friendly non-enemy. By being of the attitude friendly, that means he won't attack you, and will offer you "limited help". He will NOT take risks to aid you without a DC 20+ Diplomacy check to raise his attitude to helpful. And if I recall correctly, using diplomacy takes an entire minute (10 combat rounds), unles you take a -10 penalty to the check to rush diplomacy. Er.. what is the difference between an "ally" and a "friendly non-enemy"? I assume you mean he won't start attacking his former compatriots - this I agree with, unless the individual concerned is strongly chaotic and liable to turn on them. However, he certainly will not be attacking you, and will most likely be trying to call off his friends. And if he is the leader of the group of enemies, you have the ability to stop a battle with a single 1st level spell. I think that's pretty impressive, in particular because there is no level cap on the victim. Clearly, they will have a better a saving throw at higher levels, but the potential is there.
clafferty 02-11-04, 09:30 AM	Originally posted by Sproik Er.. what is the difference between an "ally" and a "friendly non-enemy"? I assume you mean he won't start attacking his former compatriots - this I agree with, unless the individual concerned is strongly chaotic and liable to turn on them. I just didn't like the term "ally", and instead wanted to use the terminology used and defined in the PHB and DMG regarding NPC attitudes (in this case, "friendly"). This is what the spell effect sets them as, and what they will and won't do at this attitude is pretty clearly stated. "Friendly. Means Wishes you well. Possible Actions: Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." As opposed to "Helpful. Will take risks to help you. Possible Actions: Protect, back up, heal, aid." An unusual character who is chaotic enough to turn on his former allies when charmed is chaotic enough to turn on his former allies when not charmed, so that becomes a moot point I think. Sproik also said: However, he certainly will not be attacking you, and will most likely be trying to call off his friends. And if he is the leader of the group of enemies, you have the ability to stop a battle with a single 1st level spell. I think that's pretty impressive, in particular because there is no level cap on the victim. Clearly, they will have a better a saving throw at higher levels, but the potential is there. If a wizard managed to charm a leader of a group, then that certainly would be a very good use of it. However, anything that could kill, incapacitate, change a leader's attitude, or make a leader of a group flee would be a very useful effect, but I don't see this as having much bearing on the power of the spell, but rather wise and strategic application of it. Similar results *might* be gained by striking down the leader with a lucky sneak attack shot by a rogue with a crossbow. An entire low level encounter can be won with the single use of the 1st level spell Sleep, taking between 2 and 8 Hit Die of creatures out of the battle, leader or not (and which are susceptible to a Coup De Grace). An entire encounter can be won by the successful use of the 1st level spell Command on the leader. An enemy group *might* be put into total chaos by the application of the 1st level spell Random Action on the leader. A well placed 1st level Druid spell Entangle could bring a group of enemies to a stop while the players picked them off at range. But my point is that there are many 1st level spells that can be as powerful or more powerful in stopping a combat. Charm Person does have limitations in regards to using it in Combat, but I just think that your intepretation (which also is the one by my DM) limits it even more than is intended. I've tried to look on FAQ's, the PHB, DMG, erretas, etc, to see if I could find something more specific, but I've had no luck. The only official definition I can find for "threaten" or "threatened", is the one in the PHB Glossary that says "To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space." Now, using that definition in regards to Charm Person seems to be going to the other extreme, and would make it too powerful. However, giving the bonus to save when the target is the aggressor and before the defender has performed any threatening actions seems to overly weaken the spell.
Sproik 02-11-04, 10:04 AM	Understand that I don't think Charm Person is the best spell to use to undermine an enemy force in combat. I am just suggesting how useful it could be. As I believe I stated before, the best application of Charm Person is outside combat altogether.
clafferty 02-11-04, 10:04 AM	I've decided to ask Wizards this question. If I hear back from them, I'll post what I hear here.