charm person questions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

charm person questions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Finarin Panjoro
12-30-04, 12:19 PM I have two questions regarding charm person that are not answered in the spell description or the DMG.

1. If I charm someone while polymorphed/disguised as someone else does the person believe the other person (the one I'm impersonating) to be their trusted friend for the duration of the spell? It seems to me that this would be the case since no mental domination or communication takes place through the spell.

2. If two opposed people charm one person how do you resolve who has the greater effect (such as two enemy wizards charming the same fighter)? My thought was three way opposed charisma checks with the highest winning as long as it was higher than the charmed person's check.

Apologies if these have been answered before.
Thanks, Fin
Seeker95
12-30-04, 01:11 PM 1. Whatever you want. With charm person the caster is in charge.

2. This becomes a contest of wills. Assuming the target failed his will save against both casters, the two casters would roll opposed will checks to see who gets the upper hand. This applies only if conflicting commands are given. If the charmed individual can comply with both sets of commands/orders/requests, then there is no problem!

Note, the first is not a house rule.
The second is a house rule since the rules do not cover it.
Someone
12-30-04, 01:28 PM 1.) I'm pretty sure the target's attitude reverts to whatever it was before the spell when it ends. So if they disliked the person you disguised yourself as before, I think they would still dislike the person after. And would probably wonder why they were so helpful to them just then...

2.) Both spells would work. It would be like if two of your friends gave you conflicting requests. You aren't obligated to do what they ask, but you would like to. Basicly, charms from multiple casters would result in the target percieving multiple new "friends".
Seeker95
12-30-04, 02:28 PM Someone:

1. I might have missed it, but I can't find anything in the original question that involves *after* the duration ends.
Finarin Panjoro
12-30-04, 05:04 PM Thanks guys.

With number one what I'm wondering is: if I polymorph myself into Bill the fighter, and Oscar the Orc believes I am Bill the fighter (fails his spot vs. my disguise), and I successfully charm Oscar the Orc will he treat the real Bill the Fighter as a trusted friend for as long as the spell lasts (assuming I'm not present to confuse the issue with there being two Bills)?
Seeker95
12-30-04, 05:05 PM Finarin, it is definitely a judgment call, but I think it smacks of perfect creativity, and I would allow it to work as you have described.
Ghich
12-30-04, 05:07 PM actualy there is a rule covering this, its found on page 172 of the PHB. and from the SRD: "Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys."
Seeker95
12-30-04, 05:40 PM actualy there is a rule covering this, its found on page 172 of the PHB. That doesn't address the question of:
"will a character charmed by Fake-Bob think the Real-Bob is a friend while the charm spell is still in effect?"
Finarin Panjoro
12-30-04, 06:25 PM Thanks Ghich and Seeker,
Ghich's quote does clinch my number 2 question.
I'm with Seeker on the first issue so I'm going to allow it.
[GSV] Kirstar
12-30-04, 09:28 PM i would say that if tim the enchanter charmed oscar the orc, while disquised as fred the fighter. then oscar the orc would be friendly towards tim the enchanter disuised as fred the fighter.

if tim the enchanter went out of line of sight of oscar the orc and disguised himself as clarise the cleric then oscar the orc would be friendly towards tim the enchanter disquised as clarise the cleric. however if the real clarise or the real fred turned up they wouldnt be friendly towards them.
Someone
12-31-04, 01:38 AM Someone:

1. I might have missed it, but I can't find anything in the original question that involves *after* the duration ends.Uh, whoops. I guess I answered the wrong question there...

Okay, so let me try to get this straight: fake-bob charms person. real-bob shows up while person is still charmed. will person regard real-bob as if he were fake-bob?

I'm torn on this one.
Yes, the person would percieve "bob" (real or fake) as a friend for the duration of the spell, unless they see through the disguise.
No, fake-bob has magic backing him up, so the person would subconsiously be aware that fake-bob is the one who cast the spell, not real-bob.
Bloodtide_the_Red
12-31-04, 02:14 AM If I charm someone while polymorphed/disguised as someone else does the person believe the other person (the one I'm impersonating) to be their trusted friend for the duration of the spell?
if I polymorph myself into Bill the fighter, and Oscar the Orc believes I am Bill the fighter (fails his spot vs. my disguise), and I successfully charm Oscar the Orc will he treat the real Bill the Fighter as a trusted friend for as long as the spell lasts

--Nope. Oscar does not think the real Bill is his freind, he simply thinks 'that guy' over there is his freind, who he would likely not know the name of or anything about anyway. The spell does not make you freinds with an apprence, it makes you freinds with the caster. If Oscar was to meet the real Bill he might see that he looks just like his (charm influnced) freind Bill, but would fell none of the magical effect and would not have to listen to the real Bill.
Basicaly, you can't give 'control' of a cramed person over to another guy who is not the spellcaster. Charm person makes a creature think you(the spellcaster) are a trusted freind and ally. It does not 'inplant the mental idea of freindship between the target creature and another slected by the caster'(though that's not a bad spell idea.).

BT
Seeker95
12-31-04, 08:57 AM I'm not disagreeing with either interpretation, although I think BtR made a better case than I did. However, I do think that whichever interpretation you use in your campaign, it could lead to some very interesting outcomes!

Imagine the consternation of either the Real-Bob:
What? Why do you like me? We are perfect strangers!

or the consternation of the friends of the charmed one:
What? But you just asked us to help Bob!
Finarin Panjoro
01-06-05, 05:54 PM I'm going with it being based on perception at the time of casting. So if a wizard polymorphed into a fighter charms someone it is the fighter that the target feels friendly toward.

However if the wizard revealed himself to the target he would then feel friendly toward the wizard and not the fighter. If the wizard left line of sight while appearing to be the fighter and then returned as the wizard the target would not feel friendly toward the wizard. If the real fighter then entered the room the target would feel friendly toward him.

If a wizard wants to use two spells to allow a charm to relate to someone else I don't see a problem with it. They might want the person to feel charmed by the paladin with the high charisma who can convince them to do more things than the wizard can due to his low charisma, but they have to pull off the deception and use the extra resouces to make this work.

Thanks everyone for their comments.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finarin Panjoro 12-30-04, 12:19 PM	I have two questions regarding charm person that are not answered in the spell description or the DMG. 1. If I charm someone while polymorphed/disguised as someone else does the person believe the other person (the one I'm impersonating) to be their trusted friend for the duration of the spell? It seems to me that this would be the case since no mental domination or communication takes place through the spell. 2. If two opposed people charm one person how do you resolve who has the greater effect (such as two enemy wizards charming the same fighter)? My thought was three way opposed charisma checks with the highest winning as long as it was higher than the charmed person's check. Apologies if these have been answered before. Thanks, Fin
Seeker95 12-30-04, 01:11 PM	1. Whatever you want. With charm person the caster is in charge. 2. This becomes a contest of wills. Assuming the target failed his will save against both casters, the two casters would roll opposed will checks to see who gets the upper hand. This applies only if conflicting commands are given. If the charmed individual can comply with both sets of commands/orders/requests, then there is no problem! Note, the first is not a house rule. The second is a house rule since the rules do not cover it.
Someone 12-30-04, 01:28 PM	1.) I'm pretty sure the target's attitude reverts to whatever it was before the spell when it ends. So if they disliked the person you disguised yourself as before, I think they would still dislike the person after. And would probably wonder why they were so helpful to them just then... 2.) Both spells would work. It would be like if two of your friends gave you conflicting requests. You aren't obligated to do what they ask, but you would like to. Basicly, charms from multiple casters would result in the target percieving multiple new "friends".
Seeker95 12-30-04, 02:28 PM	Someone: 1. I might have missed it, but I can't find anything in the original question that involves after the duration ends.
Finarin Panjoro 12-30-04, 05:04 PM	Thanks guys. With number one what I'm wondering is: if I polymorph myself into Bill the fighter, and Oscar the Orc believes I am Bill the fighter (fails his spot vs. my disguise), and I successfully charm Oscar the Orc will he treat the real Bill the Fighter as a trusted friend for as long as the spell lasts (assuming I'm not present to confuse the issue with there being two Bills)?
Seeker95 12-30-04, 05:05 PM	Finarin, it is definitely a judgment call, but I think it smacks of perfect creativity, and I would allow it to work as you have described.
Ghich 12-30-04, 05:07 PM	actualy there is a rule covering this, its found on page 172 of the PHB. and from the SRD: "Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys."
Seeker95 12-30-04, 05:40 PM	actualy there is a rule covering this, its found on page 172 of the PHB. That doesn't address the question of: "will a character charmed by Fake-Bob think the Real-Bob is a friend while the charm spell is still in effect?"
Finarin Panjoro 12-30-04, 06:25 PM	Thanks Ghich and Seeker, Ghich's quote does clinch my number 2 question. I'm with Seeker on the first issue so I'm going to allow it.
[GSV] Kirstar 12-30-04, 09:28 PM	i would say that if tim the enchanter charmed oscar the orc, while disquised as fred the fighter. then oscar the orc would be friendly towards tim the enchanter disuised as fred the fighter. if tim the enchanter went out of line of sight of oscar the orc and disguised himself as clarise the cleric then oscar the orc would be friendly towards tim the enchanter disquised as clarise the cleric. however if the real clarise or the real fred turned up they wouldnt be friendly towards them.
Someone 12-31-04, 01:38 AM	Someone: 1. I might have missed it, but I can't find anything in the original question that involves after the duration ends.Uh, whoops. I guess I answered the wrong question there... Okay, so let me try to get this straight: fake-bob charms person. real-bob shows up while person is still charmed. will person regard real-bob as if he were fake-bob? I'm torn on this one. Yes, the person would percieve "bob" (real or fake) as a friend for the duration of the spell, unless they see through the disguise. No, fake-bob has magic backing him up, so the person would subconsiously be aware that fake-bob is the one who cast the spell, not real-bob.
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-31-04, 02:14 AM	If I charm someone while polymorphed/disguised as someone else does the person believe the other person (the one I'm impersonating) to be their trusted friend for the duration of the spell? if I polymorph myself into Bill the fighter, and Oscar the Orc believes I am Bill the fighter (fails his spot vs. my disguise), and I successfully charm Oscar the Orc will he treat the real Bill the Fighter as a trusted friend for as long as the spell lasts --Nope. Oscar does not think the real Bill is his freind, he simply thinks 'that guy' over there is his freind, who he would likely not know the name of or anything about anyway. The spell does not make you freinds with an apprence, it makes you freinds with the caster. If Oscar was to meet the real Bill he might see that he looks just like his (charm influnced) freind Bill, but would fell none of the magical effect and would not have to listen to the real Bill. Basicaly, you can't give 'control' of a cramed person over to another guy who is not the spellcaster. Charm person makes a creature think you(the spellcaster) are a trusted freind and ally. It does not 'inplant the mental idea of freindship between the target creature and another slected by the caster'(though that's not a bad spell idea.). BT
Seeker95 12-31-04, 08:57 AM	I'm not disagreeing with either interpretation, although I think BtR made a better case than I did. However, I do think that whichever interpretation you use in your campaign, it could lead to some very interesting outcomes! Imagine the consternation of either the Real-Bob: What? Why do you like me? We are perfect strangers! or the consternation of the friends of the charmed one: What? But you just asked us to help Bob!
Finarin Panjoro 01-06-05, 05:54 PM	I'm going with it being based on perception at the time of casting. So if a wizard polymorphed into a fighter charms someone it is the fighter that the target feels friendly toward. However if the wizard revealed himself to the target he would then feel friendly toward the wizard and not the fighter. If the wizard left line of sight while appearing to be the fighter and then returned as the wizard the target would not feel friendly toward the wizard. If the real fighter then entered the room the target would feel friendly toward him. If a wizard wants to use two spells to allow a charm to relate to someone else I don't see a problem with it. They might want the person to feel charmed by the paladin with the high charisma who can convince them to do more things than the wizard can due to his low charisma, but they have to pull off the deception and use the extra resouces to make this work. Thanks everyone for their comments.