Charm Person vs Charm Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charm Person vs Charm Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
daganisoraan
06-15-07, 08:20 PM Can a creature that is charmed charm the character that is charming her.
Lets say that:
Bob the wizard charm Jack the sorcerer.
Jack now consider Bob as a friend.
Since Jack doesn't know if Bob see him as a friend or not, he cast charm person on Bob.

Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable?

What would happen if both characters are charmed?
cwslyclgh
06-15-07, 08:23 PM Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable?I would say that would depend on your alignment and general view of friendship...
utilitarian
06-15-07, 08:29 PM Can a creature that is charmed charm the character that is charming her.
Lets say that:
Bob the wizard charm Jack the sorcerer.
Jack now consider Bob as a friend.
Since Jack doesn't know if Bob see him as a friend or not, he cast charm person on Bob.

Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable?

What would happen if both characters are charmed?

I should think not. Jack thinks that Bob is his best buddy in the whole world. Why would he need to charm his best buddy in the whole world? He's ALREADY his best buddy, no need to charm him to make him that.
Ezurus
06-15-07, 08:31 PM It would be an exceptional circumstance. I mean why would you ever need to charm your bestest buddy in da whole world? But let's say you charm the sorcerer, and then you want to go attack his companions. He might think 'Oh no! My bestest friend is attacking my other friends! I must stop him, but I wouldn't ever hurt him!!! I know! I'll charm him!

I could see it.
cwslyclgh
06-15-07, 08:36 PM I should think not. Jack thinks that Bob is his best buddy in the whole world. Why would he need to charm his best buddy in the whole world? He's ALREADY his best buddy, no need to charm him to make him that.

unless of course Jack is the sort of rat-bastard who routinely charms all of his friends "just to be safe".
daganisoraan
06-15-07, 08:47 PM The reason i posted this question is because i'm currently working on a prestige class where the character permanently charm a succubus. Know i'm asking myself, what would prevent her for charming the character since she is chaotic evil.

May prestige class, the Fiendmate (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12712272), can be found on the mature board.
CantripN
06-15-07, 08:49 PM ...What would happen if both characters are charmed?

I'm betting on hot... steamy... coffee.
cwslyclgh
06-15-07, 08:51 PM I'm betting on hot... steamy... coffee.

I was thinking "buddy movie" until daganisoraan' last post...
CryoSilver
06-15-07, 08:52 PM Well, Charm Person sets the attitude to Friendly, so it'd be like they were close acquaintances; whatever they'd normally do is what they'd do, more than likely.
utilitarian
06-15-07, 09:22 PM unless of course Jack is the sort of rat-bastard who routinely charms all of his friends "just to be safe".

Well unfortunately this is the problem with this line of reasoning: Jack doesn't actually regard these people as his friends. They're people he knows that he keeps under Charm Person to ensure thier loyalty.

Even if Jack doesn't have ANY friends that he truely trusts, if Bob uses Charm Person on him, Jack will spontaniously generate a catagory of friends that he trusts implicitly, and place Bob within that catagory.

Now, as an above poster pointed out, you have to watch your behavior once you've done this, as if you start doing things that drastically offend Jack he might decide you've lost his newly fabricated trust, and THEN go for the Charm Person
cwslyclgh
06-15-07, 09:26 PM Jack doesn't actually regard these people as his friends.I dissagree, this statement is entirely dependent on your definition of friendship. other peoples definitions may vary.
utilitarian
06-15-07, 09:44 PM I dissagree, this statement is entirely dependent on your definition of friendship. other peoples definitions may vary.

On the contrary, this is based on the AD&D definition of friendship. This is one of those situations where the concreteness of AD&D differs from reality. Just as in real life we often debate the goodness or evilness of certain things, when they are much more black and white within the boundries of this game.

Similarily, "friend" is not simply a word with vague meanings, it is a specific level of affection possesed by an NPC.
cwslyclgh
06-16-07, 12:49 AM from the SRD:
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly)

from the Influencing NPC reactions sidebar in the PHB:

Friendly ... chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate.I don't see anything about trusting implicitly (although I guess the spells flavor text could be construed that way), nor is this listed in the glossary, so friendly is certianly not a condition... nothing in the rules indicate that a friendly attitude is something that is strictly governed by any deep game meaning other then what is cited above. Ergo, with in that range, a creature is free to abide by what ever friendship means to that creature... if Jake is insecure enough to charm those that he likes to chat/advise/offer limited help/advocate with/to/for, more power too him.
Sarlax
06-16-07, 11:55 AM Charm is a very potent effect.

Charming another creature gives the charming character the ability to befriend and suggest courses of actions to his minion, but the servitude is not absolute or mindless. Charms of this type include the various charm spells. Essentially, a charmed character retains free will but makes choices according to a skewed view of the world.

* A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to understand his new friend’s language.
* A charmed character retains his original alignment and allegiances, generally with the exception that he now regards the charming creature as a dear friend and will give great weight to his suggestions and directions.
* A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends).
* A charmed character is entitled to an opposed Charisma check against his master in order to resist instructions or commands that would make him do something he wouldn’t normally do even for a close friend. If he succeeds, he decides not to go along with that order but remains charmed.
* A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to her.
* If the charming creature commands his minion to do something that the influenced character would be violently opposed to, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to break free of the influence altogether.
* A charmed character who is openly attacked by the creature who charmed him or by that creature’s apparent allies is automatically freed of the spell or effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
daganisoraan 06-15-07, 08:20 PM	Can a creature that is charmed charm the character that is charming her. Lets say that: Bob the wizard charm Jack the sorcerer. Jack now consider Bob as a friend. Since Jack doesn't know if Bob see him as a friend or not, he cast charm person on Bob. Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable? What would happen if both characters are charmed?
cwslyclgh 06-15-07, 08:23 PM	Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable?I would say that would depend on your alignment and general view of friendship...
utilitarian 06-15-07, 08:29 PM	Can a creature that is charmed charm the character that is charming her. Lets say that: Bob the wizard charm Jack the sorcerer. Jack now consider Bob as a friend. Since Jack doesn't know if Bob see him as a friend or not, he cast charm person on Bob. Would casting charm person on a friend be acceptable? What would happen if both characters are charmed? I should think not. Jack thinks that Bob is his best buddy in the whole world. Why would he need to charm his best buddy in the whole world? He's ALREADY his best buddy, no need to charm him to make him that.
Ezurus 06-15-07, 08:31 PM	It would be an exceptional circumstance. I mean why would you ever need to charm your bestest buddy in da whole world? But let's say you charm the sorcerer, and then you want to go attack his companions. He might think 'Oh no! My bestest friend is attacking my other friends! I must stop him, but I wouldn't ever hurt him!!! I know! I'll charm him! I could see it.
cwslyclgh 06-15-07, 08:36 PM	I should think not. Jack thinks that Bob is his best buddy in the whole world. Why would he need to charm his best buddy in the whole world? He's ALREADY his best buddy, no need to charm him to make him that. unless of course Jack is the sort of rat-bastard who routinely charms all of his friends "just to be safe".
daganisoraan 06-15-07, 08:47 PM	The reason i posted this question is because i'm currently working on a prestige class where the character permanently charm a succubus. Know i'm asking myself, what would prevent her for charming the character since she is chaotic evil. May prestige class, the Fiendmate (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12712272), can be found on the mature board.
CantripN 06-15-07, 08:49 PM	...What would happen if both characters are charmed? I'm betting on hot... steamy... coffee.
cwslyclgh 06-15-07, 08:51 PM	I'm betting on hot... steamy... coffee. I was thinking "buddy movie" until daganisoraan' last post...
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 08:52 PM	Well, Charm Person sets the attitude to Friendly, so it'd be like they were close acquaintances; whatever they'd normally do is what they'd do, more than likely.
utilitarian 06-15-07, 09:22 PM	unless of course Jack is the sort of rat-bastard who routinely charms all of his friends "just to be safe". Well unfortunately this is the problem with this line of reasoning: Jack doesn't actually regard these people as his friends. They're people he knows that he keeps under Charm Person to ensure thier loyalty. Even if Jack doesn't have ANY friends that he truely trusts, if Bob uses Charm Person on him, Jack will spontaniously generate a catagory of friends that he trusts implicitly, and place Bob within that catagory. Now, as an above poster pointed out, you have to watch your behavior once you've done this, as if you start doing things that drastically offend Jack he might decide you've lost his newly fabricated trust, and THEN go for the Charm Person
cwslyclgh 06-15-07, 09:26 PM	Jack doesn't actually regard these people as his friends.I dissagree, this statement is entirely dependent on your definition of friendship. other peoples definitions may vary.
utilitarian 06-15-07, 09:44 PM	I dissagree, this statement is entirely dependent on your definition of friendship. other peoples definitions may vary. On the contrary, this is based on the AD&D definition of friendship. This is one of those situations where the concreteness of AD&D differs from reality. Just as in real life we often debate the goodness or evilness of certain things, when they are much more black and white within the boundries of this game. Similarily, "friend" is not simply a word with vague meanings, it is a specific level of affection possesed by an NPC.
cwslyclgh 06-16-07, 12:49 AM	from the SRD: This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly) from the Influencing NPC reactions sidebar in the PHB: Friendly ... chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate.I don't see anything about trusting implicitly (although I guess the spells flavor text could be construed that way), nor is this listed in the glossary, so friendly is certianly not a condition... nothing in the rules indicate that a friendly attitude is something that is strictly governed by any deep game meaning other then what is cited above. Ergo, with in that range, a creature is free to abide by what ever friendship means to that creature... if Jake is insecure enough to charm those that he likes to chat/advise/offer limited help/advocate with/to/for, more power too him.
Sarlax 06-16-07, 11:55 AM	Charm is a very potent effect. Charming another creature gives the charming character the ability to befriend and suggest courses of actions to his minion, but the servitude is not absolute or mindless. Charms of this type include the various charm spells. Essentially, a charmed character retains free will but makes choices according to a skewed view of the world. * A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to understand his new friend’s language. * A charmed character retains his original alignment and allegiances, generally with the exception that he now regards the charming creature as a dear friend and will give great weight to his suggestions and directions. * A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends). * A charmed character is entitled to an opposed Charisma check against his master in order to resist instructions or commands that would make him do something he wouldn’t normally do even for a close friend. If he succeeds, he decides not to go along with that order but remains charmed. * A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to her. * If the charming creature commands his minion to do something that the influenced character would be violently opposed to, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to break free of the influence altogether. * A charmed character who is openly attacked by the creature who charmed him or by that creature’s apparent allies is automatically freed of the spell or effect.