Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Veldan Rath 02-14-07, 03:55 PM	As a DM and a player, I find Charm Person's mechanics a bit..vauge. From the SRD The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Well, goodie. Depending upon interpetation, this spell is either useless or overpowered for a 1st level spell. For noncombat, this is an excellent spell. But if used before combat takes place, a bard or sorcerer (high CHR) is gonna win most opposed checks. Let's say Dandy the Bard, in combat, but not threatening anyone, casts Charm Person on Thok the Barbarian who is not being threatened by any of Dandy's allies, is not raging yet, but Thok has an ally in combat. Thok blows his save (big suprise). Dandy with his 18 Charisma, vs Thok's 10. Dandy says in the first round of battle: "Don't let those other guys hurt me!" Wins check, and Thok would take up a defensive stance near the bard. Does that sound fair? To me it would, Thok is pretty much out of the battle. And, thus Charm Person is no more powerful than Sleep or Color spray. However, what if one of Thok's friends decide to attack Dandy, can Thok be convienced to interfere, or if Dandy goes on the offensive and tries to convince Thok to attack his brethren, how far can you go with this first level spell?
Seeker95 02-14-07, 04:08 PM	This is not a dominate spell. It only makes the target treat you as friendly. As such, you can get the target to do anything you could normally convince a friend to do. If what you are asking is outside what you could ask a friend to do, then you couldn't get the target to do it either. In your example, Thok would certainly not let anyone attack Dandy. But Thok will not attack his existing allies either. If he finds a battle between Dandy and his other friends is about to occur, he will do what you might do if two of your good friends came to blows. Run away, or just stand in the way. But you are not likely to fight back. Trying to reason with the attackers (his friends) is going to alert them that something is wrong. If they know how to dispel magic, they will try to do so. If they do not, then they will have to decide whether to go through Thok, or run away, or get more creative. Creature alignment may play a role in this.
Fireclave 02-14-07, 04:20 PM	Charm Person makes someone view you as a trusted friend, so the real question to ask is "what would the target to for a trusted friend." With your example, would Thok stick is neck out for a trusted friend? If Thok puts great value in his friends, then probably. If Thok LE and prefers to only look out for No.1, usually leaving his "friends" to fend for themselves, then probably not. Likewise, if Thok has obligations higher than friendship, he might not lend a hand either. Such might be the case if Dandy's antagonists are part of the Town Guard and Thok is extremely loyal to his town. Hope that helps.
NineInchNall 02-14-07, 04:58 PM	Or you could make the DC 20 Diplomacy check to change him to Helpful, and ... :cool:
Fireclave 02-14-07, 05:56 PM	Except that Diplomancy requires you to sink skill points, takes at least a minute, and only has a DC of 20 if the initial attitude was friendly :P
FrostHammer 02-14-07, 07:20 PM	You can use Diplomacy in combat. You take a -10 penalty due to how quickly you have to do it though...
Veldan Rath 02-15-07, 08:30 PM	Well, a sorcerer would have a hard time, but the bard with a maxed out Diplomacy...evel 4 so, 7 ranks, plus 4 for Chr is 11 -10 = 1. Well, nevermind. He would need to roll a 19 + 1 to get a 20 Friendly to Helpful. Well, that puts it in perspective.
Seeker95 02-15-07, 08:40 PM	VR, try that again *after* the bard has cast glibness. :devil:
Vedic Cold 02-15-07, 08:54 PM	VR, try that again *after* the bard has cast glibness. :devil: But glibness affects the bluff skill, not diplomacy.
FrostHammer 02-15-07, 09:43 PM	Umm, first of all, a level 4 probably wouldn't try it...but a few levels later (let's say level 7), with added bonuses thanks to 5 ranks in know (nobility), Bluff, and Sense motive, you now only need to roll a 10 in combat.
Seeker95 02-16-07, 09:06 AM	But glibness affects the bluff skill, not diplomacy.Bluff him while friendly and you do not need to diplomatically change him to helpful. :devil:
Draxo 02-16-07, 09:17 AM	I never really could see any use for this spell ever. It has a very obvious casting method (V, S) and a short range.. so in a social situation, they're going to know youve cast something on them. It says nothing about altering their memories. Only by making it silent can i really see a use of it..
Seeker95 02-16-07, 12:25 PM	Draxo, charm the casino guard. He lets you in (since his friends are allowed entry). So he knows he was charmed when the spell wears off. Big deal. You've accomplished what you want. I wouldn't try to use this in recurring NPCs, but single contact targets are fine.
ArcTan 02-16-07, 07:58 PM	Bluff him while friendly and you do not need to diplomatically change him to helpful. :devil: Bluffs should logically have a much more limited utility than Diplomacy. By RAW, Bluff only lets you control a target's actions so far (you can only make them generally have the kind of reaction you want them to have), and that only for one combat round. After that, the only lasting effect you can have on them is whether they believe what you say (which may come into conflict with other things they know to be true). Players should not feel free to run fast and loose with this. The thing about charm person is that it doesn't *only* allow you to treat someone as a trusted friend, it also makes them perceive everything you do in the most favorable possible light. I.e. you can't *lose* their friendship while they're charmed. A charmed target may well be quite aware that you've charmed them -- depending on their Spellcraft check -- but for the duration of the charm effect, they just don't care. They probably will get quite angry at you when the effect wears off, but hopefully you have a plan for dealing with that.
OneWinged4ngel 02-17-07, 01:16 AM	Well, a sorcerer would have a hard time, but the bard with a maxed out Diplomacy...evel 4 so, 7 ranks, plus 4 for Chr is 11 -10 = 1. Well, nevermind. He would need to roll a 19 + 1 to get a 20 Friendly to Helpful. Well, that puts it in perspective. In *reality*, rather than your own little world where only base ranks and a stat counts, the Bard is getting a lot more to Diplomacy than +11 unless that's his *only* social skill and he puts no effort or focus into the skill at all. At level 2, let alone level 4. At the very least consider the numerous skills that synergize with it (giving a +2 for EACH of them that you have 5 ranks in). That should be good enough to start you off. It's not hard to get +20 diplomacy in the first couple levels.
Veldan Rath 02-22-07, 10:08 PM	In *reality*, rather than your own little world where only base ranks and a stat counts, the Bard is getting a lot more to Diplomacy ...blah, blah blah Ya know, your reasoned and good points lose a bit of thier luster when you start off with such a *witty* editorial.
blood_of_vol 02-23-07, 01:59 PM	Well, in my opinion, using diplomacy to bring Thok to helpful is out of the question. The spell description specifically states that the subject is treated as friendly, he isn't actually at friendly. Therefore, the DC would be 50 (assuming Thok was hostile at the casting of the spell). I have a level 7 beguiler who uses charm person a lot. In our last adventure, I used charm person against the final boss (a man who had been summoning devils in his house and was tied to a mass murder) after I had used hold person against him and disposed of the devils he had with him. It was unclear whether he had summoned them or if they were his allies, but the point is, I charmed him. I then convinced him to come to my house and bring his son along with him. We then murdered them cleanly (It is quite easy to kill a caster when he doesn't know you're coming). I thought at the time that this was a very powerful use of a first level spell. Even though in the initial post, you compare the use of this spell to sleep or color spray, but it is much more powerful due to the fact that it has no HD limit, as those spells do. Those are my 2 coppers.
Needle 02-23-07, 02:07 PM	Draxo, charm the casino guard. He lets you in (since his friends are allowed entry). So he knows he was charmed when the spell wears off. Big deal. You've accomplished what you want. I wouldn't try to use this in recurring NPCs, but single contact targets are fine. The spell says nothing about them suddenly forgetting the moment before the spell goes off. They would know you just cast a spell on them, and they would know that -suddenly they like you.
Finarin Panjoro 02-23-07, 04:04 PM	That's true, but since they percieve your actions in the best possible light while under the influence of the spell they will be grateful to you for casting it on them as it has given them new friend. So effectively until the spell wears off they just don't care that you charmed them. The spell also doesn't give you direct enough control to garuntee the outcome of anything that they do. It doesn't suddenly make them a good person. If you're dealing with someone who would gladly sacrifice a friend to achieve their goals you may not be any better off than you were before you cast the spell. It also doesn't affect how they feel about the other party members. They may not attack you, but you'll probably have to win that opposed charisma check to keep them from killing your friends and that depends on him being willing to listen to you while he's swinging away at your friends. You also have to keep in mind that if you can convince him to betray a friend while under the influence of the spell, the friend can probably convince him to betray you. If he'll betray one friend he'll betray another. Especially if his attitude towards his real friend is helpful, the spell only made him friendly toward you. There are a lot of inherent limiters in the charm person spell. I think its about right for a 1st level spell since that keeps its save pretty low as well.
Veldan Rath 02-25-07, 11:11 PM	Well, I guess we can really agree that it is not the best combat spell for 1st level. But is a very good utility spell. I just would chance a spell that gives a +5 bonus to the inital save in combat...even with the tactical advantage it could give you. I would just rather sleep 'em or color spray.