Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cyan Wisp 09-05-05, 07:45 AM	What are your opinions on the effects of a charm spell (specifically charm monster in my case) being cast on an unconscious foe? Would it work? Intuitively, I would have thought you would somehow have to interact with a conscious target, you know... give them the twinkly eye :love: or something, mutter friendly or soothing words etc. I don't think there are any rules against this, but any opinions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Nom 09-05-05, 08:06 AM	It would work. If the target failed its will save, it would be supernaturally predisposed towards you when it woke.
Callista 09-05-05, 08:31 AM	Doesn't an unconscious target auto-fail something-or-other? Is it Will saves?
Seeker95 09-05-05, 11:20 AM	Doesn't an unconscious target auto-fail something-or-other? Is it Will saves?An unconscious person is considered willing for spells that require a willing target. Other than that, an unconscious person gets a Will save (and even a Reflex save!), just like anyone else.
Cyan Wisp 09-05-05, 02:47 PM	I concur. The guy is charmed. Thanks for your speedy replies! :)
B4cchus 09-06-05, 07:35 AM	Although i think you are (somewhat) correct, i can't find any RAW mentioning anything about not getting a saving throw in ANY condition. So as long as those aren't found i'd say you get a saving throw in ANY condition (okay, death beign the exception there).
The_Ditto 09-06-05, 07:42 AM	Although i think you are (somewhat) correct, i can't find any RAW mentioning anything about not getting a saving throw in ANY condition. So as long as those aren't found i'd say you get a saving throw in ANY condition (okay, death beign the exception there). PHB .. look under the Magic section under "Aiming a spell" AIMING A SPELL You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. :tiphat: How to freak out somebody .. knock 'em unconscious, then cast Reduce Person on them ... then wake them up ... :eek:
High Octane 09-06-05, 07:56 AM	Nothing in the rules says they automatically fail the save, but hell I would give a penalty on their will save. I mean, you would already be pretty well disposed toward the person who wakes you up (Providing you arent tied up or falling out of the sky). +2 to the save DC, circumstancial.
B4cchus 09-06-05, 10:23 AM	It doesn't say anywhere that a willing target gets no saving throw. It only influences wheter you can target someone with a spell that states "target: willing person".
Nom 09-06-05, 07:14 PM	I also rule that "willing" targets automatically fail their saves against harmless spells. In other words, you must be (at least) conscious to choose to resist a harmless spell.
B4cchus 09-07-05, 03:03 AM	I also rule that "willing" targets automatically fail their saves against harmless spells. In other words, you must be (at least) conscious to choose to resist a harmless spell. That makes sense, indeed.
The_Ditto 09-07-05, 07:53 AM	It doesn't say anywhere that a willing target gets no saving throw. It only influences wheter you can target someone with a spell that states "target: willing person". Hmm, you may be right ... ... but this is darn close ... frightening so ... Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. Damn them and their messed up Grammar ... ;)
B4cchus 09-08-05, 03:29 AM	Hmm, you may be right ... ... but this is darn close ... frightening so ... Yep, i know. I wanted to use this tacting in combination with magic jar... but i still haven't found a way to lower or botch that will save.
The_Ditto 09-08-05, 07:37 AM	in combination with magic jar.... ?? :confused: ?? Magic Jar isn't looking for a willing target though ... so what that's gotta do with this thread?? :confused: (or was that just an "aside" :P )
B4cchus 09-09-05, 06:00 PM	I was referring to the automatic loss of a will save when someone is unconscious. Here's another one for you: once charmed, order the charmee to fail his will when you cast a new one to refresh the duration.
Mystyc 09-09-05, 06:59 PM	A charmed person isn't bound to obey you directly, so that'll probably require a Bluff check to make the target believe the spell is beneficial, or at least harmless. And better hope they don't have Spellcraft... Of course, if you're dominating them, that's fair game.
IceFractal 09-09-05, 07:10 PM	You couldn't tell them to "fail your will save", but you could tell them - "I'm going to cast a spell of protection on you, but I've only got one left, so you should make sure not to resist it or you won't be protected" - and since they're charmed, they're probably going to believe you (although if they're a spellcaster or have a lot of ranks in Knowledge(arcana) they'd get a check to realize that beneficial spells usually don't need you to choose not to resist them).