Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ReneBS 03-29-06, 06:08 PM	Last session raised some questions, feel free to comment: Is it possible to Charm an opponent to attack his allies (principally former allies)? If yes, why and what would end the spell? If no, why? Is it possible to use Suggestion to the same extent? And just how exact does the wording of the suggestion have to be? A suggestion of "help me" would allow the caster to practically control the subject for the duration, since the subject can be helpful (more or less) until the spell's duration expires. Thanks for any feedback!
Darken 03-29-06, 07:00 PM	Most of the time, you will not be able to do what you want here with Charm spells. Charm spells basically makes the target think you are a close and good friend; being a good friend of you does not stop your target from being any less of an ally to his existing friends/companions. At best you can convince him (with a successful Charisma check) to help neither side. With Suggestion, it's possible, but you'll need to be creative. For example, you can suggest that one of the victim's ally is a Polymorphed Pit Fiend undercover.
Terraneaux 03-29-06, 07:31 PM	With Charm a lot of the time you can get the target to stop combat in a nonlethal manner, i.e. nonlethal damage or spells like sleep. (Hey, my two friends are fighting and one or both of them might get hurt! Cut it out you two!)
Lawrence 03-29-06, 07:52 PM	Charm does not negate the intelligence of a creature, for all it makes them think the caster is friendly. THe charmed character/NPC will not attack his fellows without being tricked into it. THe theory one of them is a doppleganger, for example, might work, but at best, suggesting it will only make the character suspicious. Making them clobber their ally without giving it a second thought would be impossible unless that said ally was doing something very odd/wrong. So, if the charmer were to suggest the ally into punching someone for insulting their mother, then say something convincing to the charmed character at the same time, you might pull it off to some degree. Just a thought.
smrtgmp 03-29-06, 07:57 PM	I disagree with some of what was said above, at least to an extent. What you can or cant accomplish with charm depends alot on who you charmed. If the charmed individual has few, if any, loyalties beyond coin and/or self preservation, then it is entirely possible to get them to turn on their former "allies," especially if said allegance was little more than a matter of convenience. Conversely, if the individual you have charmed is very loyal to his/her companions, then the best you can probably hope for is to remove them from the equation by having them stand aside. Given the difference in mentality from one target to another, there really is no cut and dry answer where charms are concerned. Suggestion is a whole other can of worms. With a well worded suggestion, it is very possible to get someone to attack their companions, especially if the target is evil or prone to greed and or ambition. It should be a simple matter to convince a suspicous clan chief that his subordinate secretly covets his position. It would probably also be easy to convince his subordinate that the time for a coup is at hand, and that he stands to profit from disposing his leader.
Warmage-in-Onley 03-29-06, 09:03 PM	I think smrtgmp's got it here - a Charmed troll will attack just about anything you want it to, it's hungry! But that Paladin ain't gonna whack his friends. A creature's intelligence and general disposition (re:alignment) should provide you with legitimate support for making it do things that match it's intelligence (re:recognition) and general disposition.
Bloodtide_the_Red 03-30-06, 12:25 AM	The basic answer is yes you can turn someone against their buddies. Though, low level spells don't let you get the wild killer who will hack his buddies to death. This is not a blanket effect, however, as I feel the spell depends on the target. A good person will not cut of his freinds head for just about any reason, even if under a charm person spell. The best you could get is for them to break up the fight, or knock out the freind that is not the spell caster. Evil folks would be much more likely to hack an ally apart, though not always. Suggestion is a much better spell to turn a guy against his allies. If you word it right and keep in mind who your effecting. The spell needs to be set against the target. Again good forlk are generaly hard to turn and evil folks do it quite willingly. Though not always... Game Example-the heroic solo bard encounters two goblin bandits. He sneaks off suggestion on one of them of 'your goblin buddy is gonna kill you, you'd better strike first'. This had no effect on the goblin bandit. It was not realy any new information, both goblins have been plotting to kill each other all day. Though more then that they want the bards money, though....they can fight to the death over the coins latter. After they rob the bard, of course. Our goblin bandit wants the bard's money and kill his buddy. Naturaly, the player was hopping that they would start fighting each other and he could get away. As that did not happen, he simply lost his money. And some time latter the goblins fought over the cash they got. A good suggestion that 'should' almost always work is the doppelganger one. Say 'that's not your freind, it's a doppelganger' should be enough to get most folks to attack thier ally. The suggestion spell does not need proof, and many players are blood thirtsy anyway. Some of my players do combat Suggestions a bit diffrently. They use them just to slow a target down and make them take unwise actions in combat. This normaly works out good and it does throw in a bit of role-playing has they have to figure out who they are casting the spell on and talior it right. Some examples-'you look wounded, you should heal up before going on with this fight', 'we are deadly melee fighters, hang back and use missle weapons on us', 'we are immune to magic, just hack at us', 'pound on the tank and ignore the spellcaster'. Naturaly, you tell them the oppisite of what they should do.... BT
runestar 03-30-06, 01:19 AM	You could use charm monster to turn the party fighter against his members, but you had better have 1 heck of a glib tongue. Maybe convince the fighter that you are a very close friend and mean no harm, but that your party members are biased/mistaken and would not hesitate to do you harm, therefore "hold them off" while you use the opportunity to escape. Suggestion is somewhat better. Maybe convince him that his party has been replaced by doppelgangers and that he is the next target... :P
Sarlax 03-30-06, 01:40 PM	Charms are actually very strong. Read! A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends). I've quoted the rest of the Charm ability description in the spoiler block below. Anyway, look at what Charm does. Even a paladin would use nonlethal means to prevent friends from killing each other. A well-placed Charm or two can completely neutralize a party. Take a look at the second bolded section in the quotation. It suggests that if nonlethal means don't work, a Charmed creature will even use deadlier force, so long as that is something they'd normally due for a regular close friend. Charming another creature gives the charming character the ability to befriend and suggest courses of actions to his minion, but the servitude is not absolute or mindless. Charms of this type include the various charm spells. Essentially, a charmed character retains free will but makes choices according to a skewed view of the world. - A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to understand his new friend’s language. - A charmed character retains his original alignment and allegiances, generally with the exception that he now regards the charming creature as a dear friend and will give great weight to his suggestions and directions. - A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends). - A charmed character is entitled to an opposed Charisma check against his master in order to resist instructions or commands that would make him do something he wouldn’t normally do even for a close friend. If he succeeds, he decides not to go along with that order but remains charmed. - A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to her. - If the charming creature commands his minion to do something that the influenced character would be violently opposed to, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to break free of the influence altogether. - A charmed character who is openly attacked by the creature who charmed him or by that creature’s apparent allies is automatically freed of the spell or effect.
ReneBS 03-30-06, 02:12 PM	To return to one of my original questions, how exact should the wording of a Suggestion be? "Help me!" is surely too wide a suggestion? Would the opponent stop and ask "How?" or would he help him in another way. He wouldn't attack his allies (the party's opponents) would he? Maybe grapple him in order to remove him from danger or something really opposite the caster's intention? I would really like some guide-lines to Suggestion.
Diyon 03-30-06, 04:40 PM	Our bard has done some crazy things with suggestion. Once he suggested to the kobold sorceror we were fighting "Your best chance to escape us is to jump out that window!"(it was only the second floor). The rest of the party of course was running downstairs to wait below that window. We had one skewered kobold. Another time we ran into a chimera and he suggested it "find out which head is the best." You can guess how that turned out.
ReneBS 04-04-06, 10:48 AM	With regards to the "Your best friend is being imposted by a doppelganger, kill him!" tactic (suggestion), this of course requires that the opponent knows what a doppelganger is and is capable of doing. Thefore the lowly goblin, orc, ogre, kobold, peasant, city guard etc. without the necessary knowledge skills, or actual first- or second hand experience, would not be affected by the suggestion, since it knows not what a doppelganger is.
Puca 04-04-06, 11:28 AM	To return to one of my original questions, how exact should the wording of a Suggestion be? "Help me!" is surely too wide a suggestion? Would the opponent stop and ask "How?" or would he help him in another way. He wouldn't attack his allies (the party's opponents) would he? Maybe grapple him in order to remove him from danger or something really opposite the caster's intention? I would really like some guide-lines to Suggestion. I think that the tricky part with these is that nothing changes beyond the effects of the Suggestion, which is a course of action. A paladin is still Lawful Good and beholden to a code even when he is charmed or under the influence of a suggestion. He still knows who the rest of the people in the room are and what his relationship to them is. And he is still going to behave the way he normally would, except for that one little thing. The problem with “help me” as a suggestion is not that you wouldnt know how to help. Your method of rendering assistance is going to depend on your character. The problem is there is no “to.” Help you to do what? Get away? Defeat my friends/your opponents? Tie your shoes? What? Thats going to take the best (legitimate) guess of the influenced person, and youre right: he might guess wrong, especially if what you wanted is something that is entirely contrary to his nature.