Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM-Scott 06-29-07, 06:10 PM	SRD This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw. The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. This question is about charm person and all its family members (psionic charm, charm gaze, charm - whatever, and pretty much anything relating to charm person's effects). I was reading on the boards a while back that since the creature charmed is "friendly status" and preceives the caster's words and actions in a most favorable way, if you said "hey, kill all of your friends, take their loot, and let's get out of here" it would fail (being horribly outside of what the creature would do) but would probably either think the charmer was joking, or simply shake its head and ignore it. Now, something interesting happened in a recent game. A party of 1st level characters were fighting off some drow elves, and had dropped all of them except their cleric. Well the party's "face" character who is big on charm and diplomacy type skills manages to charm her, and then spend a bit of time talking it over with her (her being the charmed cleric). Now, the interesting part is... When she charmed her, and managed to talk to her for a while, she made a diplomacy check to get the drow to be helpful instead of just friendly. It wasn't too difficult for this character, but she oddly told the drow that she had charmed her and that the reason they were not fighting right now was because she was charmed. Now, the way we saw it, the party's telepath openly admitted that she was influencing the drow cleric. However the drow cleric was "helpful" and supposed to view everything the party's telepath said in the best way. Currently the telepath wants to redeem the drow cleric, and ginuinely cares. In the game the drow now knew her mind was being manipulated, however she preceived that this was for her own good and that her "dear friend" didn't want to kill her, and while under the duration of the effect (at least) openly knows she is being charmed but doesn't mind. The game ended before the duration wore off, so I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to handle this in the next session. What would any of you think of this situation? Any thoughts, random comments, or problems with how this worked out? I'm curious to know what other DMs would do in the situation, and if this isn't a stretch from the charming spells and effects. Any thoughts?
Dnarris 06-29-07, 06:22 PM	Soon as the Drow realized this there should have been another saving throw made to see if the spell remained in effect. If I were the DM I would secretly roll this and not inform the player that's why I was rolling the dice. That way I can have the drow pretend to be helpful and go along with you guys and have her backstab you at a critical moment.
Vegepygmy 06-29-07, 06:23 PM	I'm curious to know what other DMs would do in the situation, and if this isn't a stretch from the charming spells and effects.That's exactly how I think charm person is supposed to work. As you note, the interesting part is what happens after the charm wears off. EDIT: I would not allow another saving throw as Dnarris suggests.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-29-07, 06:26 PM	I think I'd let it go. The drow may or may not be upset by the fact that her new friend charmed her, but in either case, she knows that he did it for her own good or was left with no other choice. Once it wears off, though, she'll know she was charmed, and she'll be ****** off mightily, especially if she figures out that "for her own good" means converting her from the path of Llolth.
keyunp 06-29-07, 06:48 PM	If it was anything but a cleric of Lolth I'd say give the player a chance to convert the Drow. But a Drow cleric is the least likely to be converted. Although if you want to "have fun" with it, after the charms over, you can have the cleric see a use for the party and stay friends with the caster (psion?). A good reason could be to hurt a different house of drow. The cleric could start giving the party info on other raiding parties that belong to different houses. Another option would be to have some other drow see the party right now, think that the cleric betrayed her comrads and attack. Some drow would have to escape so that the cleric could not return without being killled as a traiter.
robitusinz 06-29-07, 06:52 PM	It's a Chaotic Evil character. If it were Lawful Evil, I could see the Cleric having some sort of honor and telling the party, "Look, thanks for not killing me, but we have diametrically opposed views, and I will have to continue to be your nemesis. We can part ways now, or we can end it here."
ElIsRa 06-30-07, 02:46 AM	I would agree that a new save would be in order if the character found out that she was under magical (or psionic) influence. It is just a knee-jerk reaction. However, I would also rule that when the spell's effects end, the drow would be considered "unfriendly" and not "hostile", at least for a short period of time because of the diplomatic efforts.
DM-Scott 06-30-07, 06:13 AM	I would also rule that when the spell's effects end, the drow would be considered "unfriendly" and not "hostile", at least for a short period of time because of the diplomatic efforts. I too am planning to make her come out of the charm effect rather annoyed, but not hostile. The character intelligently used diplomacy in conjunction with charm person (making them much easier to convince, seeing as they are likely to actually listen to you). The fact that she was actually openly stated that she had charmed her and apologized for it, to me seems like a very up-front and non-deceptive thing to do. Because of this, I don't think I'm going to re-roll her save for the power either, since it actually seems less hostile and less likely the charmed person would feel deceived or used without thier knowledge. So I believe she will come out of the charm at unfriendly, and basically the telepath will have to work with her from there. But it gives her a chance, and I think she could make for an interesting ally / contact in the future. However, I have determined that unlike many people who seem to find charm person annoying, useless, etc, I find it a very interesting spell now. If an opponent fails their save, it opens them up for a DC 20 Diplomacy check to make them helpful (which in itself is indeed quite "helpful") as well as open up interesting RP opportunities.
Dnarris 06-30-07, 06:39 AM	I too am planning to make her come out of the charm effect rather annoyed, but not hostile. The character intelligently used diplomacy in conjunction with charm person (making them much easier to convince, seeing as they are likely to actually listen to you). The fact that she was actually openly stated that she had charmed her and apologized for it, to me seems like a very up-front and non-deceptive thing to do. Because of this, I don't think I'm going to re-roll her save for the power either, since it actually seems less hostile and less likely the charmed person would feel deceived or used without thier knowledge. So I believe she will come out of the charm at unfriendly, and basically the telepath will have to work with her from there. But it gives her a chance, and I think she could make for an interesting ally / contact in the future. However, I have determined that unlike many people who seem to find charm person annoying, useless, etc, I find it a very interesting spell now. If an opponent fails their save, it opens them up for a DC 20 Diplomacy check to make them helpful (which in itself is indeed quite "helpful") as well as open up interesting RP opportunities. Hah! A Drow Priestess who respects truth and candidness! The Underdark is going to hell in a hand basket....this will disrupt the whole natural I sneak here you sneak there order! It's the end of Drow society as we know! :P
ElIsRa 06-30-07, 10:24 AM	The fact that she was actually openly stated that she had charmed her and apologized for it, to me seems like a very up-front and non-deceptive thing to do. Because of this, I don't think I'm going to re-roll her save for the power either, since it actually seems less hostile and less likely the charmed person would feel deceived or used without thier knowledge. Low be it for me to tell you how you ought run your game, but I think you misunderstood my arguement for the re-roll. It had nothing to do with how the drow felt about the PC(s), in or out of charm. It, IMHO, would simply be a reflex. Just as if a dear friend of your's were to tell you that s/he started being your friend for some selfish motive, but is sorry and hopes that you can still be friends. You would probably consider dropping them as a friend. Hah! A Drow Priestess who respects truth and candidness! The Underdark is going to hell in a hand basket....this will disrupt the whole natural I sneak here you sneak there order! It's the end of Drow society as we know! :P The term is heaven. Heaven in a Handbasket ;)
keyunp 06-30-07, 10:44 AM	Low be it for me to tell you how you ought run your game, but I think you misunderstood my arguement for the re-roll. It had nothing to do with how the drow felt about the PC(s), in or out of charm. It, IMHO, would simply be a reflex. Just as if a dear friend of your's were to tell you that s/he started being your friend for some selfish motive, but is sorry and hopes that you can still be friends. You would probably consider dropping them as a friend. While that is true normally, I think that while under the charm affect you are unable to. I'd only give it if the character had an extreme reaction to betrayel. In Drow society they expect betrayel, so find out someone lied to them would be the norm. If you absolutly trust someone then your willing to try and understand and accept.
ElIsRa 06-30-07, 10:59 AM	While that is true normally, I think that while under the charm affect you are unable to. And that is why I would give another save throw.I'd only give it if the character had an extreme reaction to betrayel. In Drow society they expect betrayel, so find out someone lied to them would be the norm. If you absolutly trust someone then your willing to try and understand and accept.You are a much kinder, and understanding person than I. Because if someone I trusted betrayed me, I would become their worst enemy.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-30-07, 11:53 AM	Priestess: "You charmed me? Oh, of course. But it is all part of the Malevolent Web of Lolth. She either wished to punish me or reward you or perhaps both, for now that I'm your friend, I can teach you the dark mysteries and initiate you into the secrets of the priesthood. Which of these others should we sacrifice so I can blaspheme you with their blood and wash away your virtue? This one, perhaps?" (Suddenly casts Slay Living on another party member so that the blood flies all over the charmer.) "Oh great Lolth, let the sacrifice of this unworthy one make my new friend bloody in your sight!" Charming the priestess mean she's charmed by you personally and regards you as a friend. Everyone else? Useless chaff.
DM-Scott 06-30-07, 06:25 PM	Well this is a homebrew campaign setting where the drow elves the party encountered are neither followers of Lolth, or even chaotic evil...closer to lawful evil or neutral evil, and are very organized. Not quite the Forgotten Realms drow who are all about stabbing each other in the backs. :P On the flip side, these particular drow are indeed evil and very violent when riled up. I'm thinking the party's telepath will have to work with the drow to bring her over to the good, but she prefers to try and redeem evil instead of killing it. I see a lot of charm effects in our party's future, and probably a lot of effort and expenditure of the telepath's resources to bring opponents down without killing them. Personally I find it refreshing for a party member to act in this way, and not fall into the baseline "kill 'em or else" mindset, and I think she is a shining example of a neutral good character (emphasis on the good). Fun stuff. :D
jaelis 06-30-07, 06:57 PM	But Kevin's point is a good one. The charmed cleric is still evil, and still has the same motivations as before. See simply sees the charmer as a friend. I would say she would be willing to treat the rest of the party as "friends of a friend," but that pretty much means she thinks they would all be evil and potential allies in whatever schemes the drow are up to. I wouldn't give a new save though. But one response might be to try and charm the PC back, so that when the first spell ends they will still be friends. Or she might try to capture the PC and bind her, the better to convince her to truly join the drow as an ally. (Like if your friend admitted they were an addict, and the only reason they were talking to you was to steal your money, you might try to confine them in some kind of intervention, while still thinking of them as friend.)
Vaelan 07-01-07, 12:55 AM	I'm sorry, but in what world do people who go around killing others for fun tolerate an attack on them, regardless of how much they like the attacker?
Horseshoe_Hermit 07-01-07, 11:39 AM	I'm sorry, but in what world do people who go around killing others for fun tolerate an attack on them, regardless of how much they like the attacker? Indeed. The Charm spells are most nonsensical. How can you like someone, without being given a history of false memories with him? That's why I just don't use them. Their effects are ill-defined. Screw friendship - I'd take compulsions any day.
ArcTan 07-01-07, 08:01 PM	Soon as the Drow realized this there should have been another saving throw made to see if the spell remained in effect. If I were the DM I would secretly roll this and not inform the player that's why I was rolling the dice. That way I can have the drow pretend to be helpful and go along with you guys and have her backstab you at a critical moment. Goes against the rules pretty blatantly. You only get a rerolled saving throw if the action is obviously harmful, and by the point that the target discovered the charming effect it was in a context where -- even from an objective standpoint -- it *wasn't* obviously harmful.
ArcTan 07-01-07, 08:03 PM	Low be it for me to tell you how you ought run your game, but I think you misunderstood my arguement for the re-roll. It had nothing to do with how the drow felt about the PC(s), in or out of charm. It, IMHO, would simply be a reflex. Just as if a dear friend of your's were to tell you that s/he started being your friend for some selfish motive, but is sorry and hopes that you can still be friends. You would probably consider dropping them as a friend. Charm person insulates you against this. You only get a reroll if "threatened", which I take to mean directly hostile actions (finding poison in your food, getting shot at, etc.). Things that are simply *bad* things get tolerated perfectly well by charmed targets. I can, literally, tell a charmed target I've been banging her friend with no effect. I can treat her like dirt and be a total ass-wad and so on with no effect. That's what the spell is *for* -- it lets awkward, antisocial jerks with a Charisma of 6 who consistently act Chaotic Evil make friends. That's why it's *creepy*.
ArcTan 07-01-07, 08:04 PM	Indeed. The Charm spells are most nonsensical. How can you like someone, without being given a history of false memories with him? So says someone who's apparently never experienced charm (the real-life, non-magical kind). Getting burned by someone over and over again and yet feeling an irrational urge to help them and be their friend is exactly what charm is all about. Lots of people in real life are apparently very good at it.
Vaelan 07-01-07, 09:49 PM	Indeed. The Charm spells are most nonsensical. Not really. The manner in which some people run it is nonsensical, though. I think we can all agree that an assault upon your free will isn't something to be taken lightly, even if it is performed by someone you consider a friend. Getting burned by someone over and over again and yet feeling an irrational urge to help them and be their friend is exactly what charm is all about. That sounds a lot more like the Fanatic attitude to me, or at least something between Helpful and Fanatic. Charm Person makes you Friendly, which is beneath Helpful so an effect that is above Helpful obviously wouldn't be appropriate.
locustechpriest 07-01-07, 10:29 PM	Well this is a homebrew campaign setting where the drow elves the party encountered are neither followers of Lolth, or even chaotic evil...closer to lawful evil or neutral evil, and are very organized. Not quite the Forgotten Realms drow who are all about stabbing each other in the backs. The FR drow are organized, especially in combat... they just break ranks more easily than some. And the stabbing in the back thing goes for everyone. I think the second she was told of the charm, that revelation counts as a threatening act (not being told, but the knowledge of the fact). It threatens her autonomy and ability to independently form a worldview, at the least. But that's just they way I would roll it. "Oh, you charmed me? That's okay, you're my friend... wait. No, you aren't!" Being surrounded by strangers that are acting "a little too friendly" seems quite threatening to me... but maybe that's lost in translation, with the drow... If the diplomacy check made her think the party would be willing to cooperate with the drow, and that they are useful, more power to them! She may just think about letting them live.
Captain_Kobold 07-01-07, 10:53 PM	Personally, I think I would have allowed a second saving throw when the drow found out that her friend was using magic to force her to feel this way. Whether the drow failed the save, or was not allowed it, I would have noted down the result of the diplomacy check that the PC used to change her attitude from friendly to helpful whilst charmed. Once the charm wears off, compare this result to the diplomacy table again, but with the cleric having an initial attitude of hostile. (I assume that the drow started out hostile, but knowing she had been magically forced to feel that way would probably make her hostile if she wasn't already.) The DM might want to apply a modifier on the check based on how she had been treated etc. If the check was good enough to change her attitude from hostile, then that new attitude is what she will have once she comes out from under the effect.
Sarlax 07-02-07, 01:59 PM	It doesn't make sense to permit a new save unless you're always permitting at least two saves for the spell. If I live in the Bone Marches/Underdark/Sigil/Waterdeep/Manifest/Sharn and I suddenly think of someone I was trying to kill as a best friend, I know I've been charmed. People in the worlds of D&D know about Charm magic. Even without a Spellcraft roll the target has a very good chance of knowing that his new buddy is only a buddy because of magic, but it's in the nature of the spell to make the target not care about that.
Lucas Blackstone 07-02-07, 02:15 PM	Personally when she told the priestess she charmed her, I would allow for the charm to break because to me that is threatening, it's a form of attack in my opinion. But whatever works, works.
Holy_Beholder 07-02-07, 02:57 PM	I would have her start at unfriendly instead of hostile when charm wears off. I might consider it going up or down based on how the party treated her(for instance, being a total ******* would start at hostile, being nice would start at indifferent.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 10:11 PM	That sounds a lot more like the Fanatic attitude to me, or at least something between Helpful and Fanatic. Charm Person makes you Friendly, which is beneath Helpful so an effect that is above Helpful obviously wouldn't be appropriate. Nonsense. Fanatic would be standing there and actually letting you cut off my limbs or something. I know a lot of people who aren't at all fanatical about, say, certain ex-boyfriends, but still tolerate harassing phone calls, send them money to help them out and generally try to look out for them because said ex-boyfriends have a certain hold on them. This hold does *not* mean that you have a hypnotic total control over someone that makes them your robotic slaves. It just means that they do have an irrational desire to forgive or overlook bad things you've done and try to help you out despite your inherent sliminess. I would say the Helpful attitude is the genuinely trying to do everything possible to help you because you're incapable of doing wrong attitude. Friendly *does* cover the attitude of "I know I'm going to regret this, and I know you're a slimeball, but fine, I'll see what I can do to help you out, just this once".