Charming or Dominating a Frenzied Berserker [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charming or Dominating a Frenzied Berserker [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thorofasgard13
09-23-07, 09:30 AM I was wondering, if you were to charm/dominate a frenzied berserker and tell them to stop frenzying, and they fail their will save to do so, they still attack you just as they would anyone else, right?

... I ask because that is how we played it when it happened...
yrogerg
09-23-07, 09:42 AM I was wondering, if you were to charm/dominate a frenzied berserker and tell them to stop frenzying, and they fail their will save to do so, they still attack you just as they would anyone else, right?

... I ask because that is how we played it when it happened...

Yup. Charm and dominate are still limited to the scope of the creature's abilities. The FB can't do anything he wouldn't be able to do when not charmed or dominated. Otherwise, you could Dominate people to make them immune to Hold Person.
Tedronai
09-23-07, 05:25 PM Charm won't help you, but Dominate at least has a chance. Of course, not attacking you that point is against the creature's nature (NOT doing something is NEVER out of reach of a character's abilities, just sometimes against it's nature or obviously suicidal - like not breathing: you COULD not breathe, but it would result in bad things for you), so they'll get extra saves and save bonuses, but at least it's something (and likely higher than the DC20 that I assume they're already failing if it's a problem).
Kyuketsukiouji
09-24-07, 07:17 AM Charm Person + Frenzied Berzerker = Frenzied Berzerker that's really unhappy he killed you for 1 hour/level.
ArcTan
09-25-07, 02:36 AM (NOT doing something is NEVER out of reach of a character's abilities, just sometimes against it's nature or obviously suicidal - like not breathing: you COULD not breathe, but it would result in bad things for you)

I don't really agree with this interpretation. That means that dominate person makes you immune to Tasha's hideous laughter or Otto's irresistible dance, which most reasonable people would agree it doesn't.

Magical or extraordinary effects that simply *force* someone to do something to not incur an "extra save" or whatever against domination, because the character isn't choosing to do them. He's just as stymied by them when trying to carry out your (implanted, false) goals as he was when he was trying to carry out his own goals.

If you can't simply decide to end your Frenzy *normally*, even to avoid killing your very best friend in the whole world, then no, there's no way dominate person suddenly gives you the power to do so.
Maurts12
09-25-07, 01:17 PM I don't have the complete arrior so I'm not familliar with the frenzied beserker but doesn't calm emotions prevent a barbarion from entering a rage? Assuming the beserker isn't actively engaged in combat wouldn't it be possible to quickly Calm him and end the effect?
Treantmonklvl20
09-25-07, 05:00 PM Calm works fine. Even something simple like Grease can save the day. Hit the weak saves with any save-or-lose and its over quick.

Charm person however isn't going to make any difference at all (except maybe he'll attack you last).

Dominate Person wouldn't either - except convince a Frenzied Berserker to attempt to end the frenzy (which, if he's attacking party members, he's probably already trying)
yrogerg
09-25-07, 05:30 PM Calm works fine. Even something simple like Grease can save the day. Hit the weak saves with any save-or-lose and its over quick.

Since when is Reflex an especially weak save for Light-armor types such as Barbarians?
Treantmonklvl20
09-25-07, 08:32 PM Since when is Reflex an especially weak save for Light-armor types such as Barbarians?

Well - lets see. A typical Frenzied Berserker will have a Fighter/Barbarian mix to start off.

Say 2 Barbarian/4 fighter (for the bonus feats)

Then add in a couple levels of Frenzied Berserker.

By level 8 I'm seeing a total reflex save of - wait for it --> +1. It is bad enough that Frenzied Berserker has a bad Ref save, but the 2 classes most commonly used to qualify for it also have bad Ref saves. As we all know, multiclassing makes good saves all the better and bad saves all the worse.

Now the Frenzied Berserker will often pump the Will save by various means to keep his ability to control Frenzy higher - the Ref gets no such special attention.

Frenzied Berserker builds rely on Str and Con. AC is a total write off for a Frenzied Berserker (-6 AC through rage and frenzy + light armor), furthermore, seldom do they give much love to ranged weapons, so it is not uncommon for them to dump dex.

Worse case scenarios - dex might be 10 or certainly no more than 12.

Grease is a near-perfect spell to target a frenzied berserker with.
ravenshrike
09-25-07, 11:27 PM Since they can't make the damned balance check needed to move(and since a jump check is part of your move action it incurs the balance check) they can't do anything except stand there and/or fall over. Of course, then they could attempt to crawl out, but that's why you force the FB to buy a Rod of Grease(Only 8000gp).
Rhaynin
09-26-07, 02:31 AM Or your could just target his big mighty sword of his with your Grease spell. That frenzied berserker beginns to loose much of his bite as he feebly tries to beat you up with his fists.
Os
09-28-07, 08:23 AM I agree that Charm/Dominate would not work. But could Calm Emotions really prevent a Frenzy Berserker from entering Frenzy??
Nezkrul
09-28-07, 04:00 PM Or your could just target his big mighty sword of his with your Grease spell. That frenzied berserker beginns to loose much of his bite as he feebly tries to beat you up with his fists.

This is the exact reason why I always wear a spiked gauntlet on my main hand and take Improved Unarmed Strike as a FB.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thorofasgard13 09-23-07, 09:30 AM	I was wondering, if you were to charm/dominate a frenzied berserker and tell them to stop frenzying, and they fail their will save to do so, they still attack you just as they would anyone else, right? ... I ask because that is how we played it when it happened...
yrogerg 09-23-07, 09:42 AM	I was wondering, if you were to charm/dominate a frenzied berserker and tell them to stop frenzying, and they fail their will save to do so, they still attack you just as they would anyone else, right? ... I ask because that is how we played it when it happened... Yup. Charm and dominate are still limited to the scope of the creature's abilities. The FB can't do anything he wouldn't be able to do when not charmed or dominated. Otherwise, you could Dominate people to make them immune to Hold Person.
Tedronai 09-23-07, 05:25 PM	Charm won't help you, but Dominate at least has a chance. Of course, not attacking you that point is against the creature's nature (NOT doing something is NEVER out of reach of a character's abilities, just sometimes against it's nature or obviously suicidal - like not breathing: you COULD not breathe, but it would result in bad things for you), so they'll get extra saves and save bonuses, but at least it's something (and likely higher than the DC20 that I assume they're already failing if it's a problem).
Kyuketsukiouji 09-24-07, 07:17 AM	Charm Person + Frenzied Berzerker = Frenzied Berzerker that's really unhappy he killed you for 1 hour/level.
ArcTan 09-25-07, 02:36 AM	(NOT doing something is NEVER out of reach of a character's abilities, just sometimes against it's nature or obviously suicidal - like not breathing: you COULD not breathe, but it would result in bad things for you) I don't really agree with this interpretation. That means that dominate person makes you immune to Tasha's hideous laughter or Otto's irresistible dance, which most reasonable people would agree it doesn't. Magical or extraordinary effects that simply force someone to do something to not incur an "extra save" or whatever against domination, because the character isn't choosing to do them. He's just as stymied by them when trying to carry out your (implanted, false) goals as he was when he was trying to carry out his own goals. If you can't simply decide to end your Frenzy normally, even to avoid killing your very best friend in the whole world, then no, there's no way dominate person suddenly gives you the power to do so.
Maurts12 09-25-07, 01:17 PM	I don't have the complete arrior so I'm not familliar with the frenzied beserker but doesn't calm emotions prevent a barbarion from entering a rage? Assuming the beserker isn't actively engaged in combat wouldn't it be possible to quickly Calm him and end the effect?
Treantmonklvl20 09-25-07, 05:00 PM	Calm works fine. Even something simple like Grease can save the day. Hit the weak saves with any save-or-lose and its over quick. Charm person however isn't going to make any difference at all (except maybe he'll attack you last). Dominate Person wouldn't either - except convince a Frenzied Berserker to attempt to end the frenzy (which, if he's attacking party members, he's probably already trying)
yrogerg 09-25-07, 05:30 PM	Calm works fine. Even something simple like Grease can save the day. Hit the weak saves with any save-or-lose and its over quick. Since when is Reflex an especially weak save for Light-armor types such as Barbarians?
Treantmonklvl20 09-25-07, 08:32 PM	Since when is Reflex an especially weak save for Light-armor types such as Barbarians? Well - lets see. A typical Frenzied Berserker will have a Fighter/Barbarian mix to start off. Say 2 Barbarian/4 fighter (for the bonus feats) Then add in a couple levels of Frenzied Berserker. By level 8 I'm seeing a total reflex save of - wait for it --> +1. It is bad enough that Frenzied Berserker has a bad Ref save, but the 2 classes most commonly used to qualify for it also have bad Ref saves. As we all know, multiclassing makes good saves all the better and bad saves all the worse. Now the Frenzied Berserker will often pump the Will save by various means to keep his ability to control Frenzy higher - the Ref gets no such special attention. Frenzied Berserker builds rely on Str and Con. AC is a total write off for a Frenzied Berserker (-6 AC through rage and frenzy + light armor), furthermore, seldom do they give much love to ranged weapons, so it is not uncommon for them to dump dex. Worse case scenarios - dex might be 10 or certainly no more than 12. Grease is a near-perfect spell to target a frenzied berserker with.
ravenshrike 09-25-07, 11:27 PM	Since they can't make the damned balance check needed to move(and since a jump check is part of your move action it incurs the balance check) they can't do anything except stand there and/or fall over. Of course, then they could attempt to crawl out, but that's why you force the FB to buy a Rod of Grease(Only 8000gp).
Rhaynin 09-26-07, 02:31 AM	Or your could just target his big mighty sword of his with your Grease spell. That frenzied berserker beginns to loose much of his bite as he feebly tries to beat you up with his fists.
Os 09-28-07, 08:23 AM	I agree that Charm/Dominate would not work. But could Calm Emotions really prevent a Frenzy Berserker from entering Frenzy??
Nezkrul 09-28-07, 04:00 PM	Or your could just target his big mighty sword of his with your Grease spell. That frenzied berserker beginns to loose much of his bite as he feebly tries to beat you up with his fists. This is the exact reason why I always wear a spiked gauntlet on my main hand and take Improved Unarmed Strike as a FB.