Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deathbane 10-18-07, 08:03 AM	If someone summons monsters can you charm(or any similar magic) them away from the summoner?
Seeker95 10-18-07, 08:33 AM	Yes, you can charm them with charm monster.
tyrecian 10-18-07, 05:49 PM	but they are magically compelled to obey the summoner right? So sure you could charm the summonned monster, but would the charm do anything? I am assuming that since the answerrer is titled "Scribe" he is right, though, it just sounds like one of those circular arguments that could go on forever :D
ArcTan 10-18-07, 06:09 PM	I would say this applies: Multiple Mental Control Effects Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
frankthedm 10-18-07, 08:43 PM	Dominate might not even be effective against a summon. Being 'summoned' is worse than being under a compulsion. You would kill your own family at the conjurer's command and he would not even need to override your will like is required for a Dominated victim to commit such an atrocity. I feel telling a Dominated summoned creature to do anything but follow it's summoner's commands falls under "against its nature". "Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."
ArcTan 10-18-07, 08:58 PM	Dominate might not even be effective against a summon. Being 'summoned' is worse than being under a compulsion. You would kill your own family at the conjurer's command and he would not even need to override your will like is required for a Dominated victim to commit such an atrocity. Which simply makes summoning a form of mental control effect stronger in some ways than dominate monster (no chance for a save against it) but weaker in others (language barrier, short duration). I feel telling a Dominated summoned creature to do anything but follow it's summoner's commands falls under "against its nature". "Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus." ...Except that you're phrasing summoning as a form of *control* of the summoned creature, not part of its "nature". (Presumably, a Celestial creature's "nature" is to do Good things even if you summon it and force it to do Evil things.) In which case it would still, like I said, fall under this: Multiple Mental Control Effects Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
frankthedm 10-18-07, 11:42 PM	In which case it would still, like I said, fall under this:Yes, but IMO there is no conflict since the only thing better than a conjurer's control over his summons is that of a clerics control of his undead. The charm makes the creature want to obey its friend, the dominate gives a chance of it killing its family as long as it is not self destructive. A summoner can make his summon commit suicide if it is not already attacking it's summoner's foes regardless of who they are. "If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows"
ArcTan 10-18-07, 11:49 PM	Yes, but IMO there is no conflict since the only thing better than a conjurer's control over his summons is that of a clerics control of his undead. The charm makes the creature want to obey its friend, the dominate gives a chance of it killing its family as long as it is not self destructive. A summoner can make his summon commit suicide if it is not already attacking it's summoner's foes regardless of who they are. "If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows" You can't just bluntly say one effect is "better" than another effect. You have to look at what the spell actually *says*. Nothing about summoning spells *says* they can ignore other forms of mental control -- it just says you can give them commands and they follow them. While it's true that summons obey all commands regardless of whether they go against their "nature" or not, unlike dominate person, that doesn't actually mean dominate person is "weaker" in a universal sense. It's just one more obstacle dominate person has when its commands conflict with the summoner's. Example: A Good-aligned Cleric summons a Celestial Dire Badger to defend some orphans. I, an Evil Sorcerer, cast charm monster on the Badger. The Good-aligned Cleric gives the Badger the command "Defend the orphans!", speaking in Celestial. According to the rules for summon monster, the Badger understands and obeys this command. I give it the command "Kill those orphans!", also speaking in Celestial. This is against its nature, so charm monster says I have to make an opposed Cha check against the Badger. Since I'm a Sorc and have an awesomely high Cha score, I win. Now the rules simply say the Badger must *both* obey the summoner's command and my command. In order to figure out which command wins, we make another opposed Cha check, this time between me and the Cleric -- one that favors me as a high-Cha character. Same with dominate monster, only with dominate monster it's a Will save rather than an opposed Cha check. With dominate monster I actually have an advantage -- I can simply give the Badger instructions telepathically. If the summoner should happen not to speak the Badger's language, the summoner is powerless to oppose me with any direct commands. This is one of the very few areas in the game where a Sorcerer has an advantage when using magic.
deathbane 10-27-07, 05:05 AM	You can't just bluntly say one effect is "better" than another effect. You have to look at what the spell actually *says*. Nothing about summoning spells *says* they can ignore other forms of mental control -- it just says you can give them commands and they follow them. While it's true that summons obey all commands regardless of whether they go against their "nature" or not, unlike dominate person, that doesn't actually mean dominate person is "weaker" in a universal sense. It's just one more obstacle dominate person has when its commands conflict with the summoner's. Example: A Good-aligned Cleric summons a Celestial Dire Badger to defend some orphans. I, an Evil Sorcerer, cast charm monster on the Badger. The Good-aligned Cleric gives the Badger the command "Defend the orphans!", speaking in Celestial. According to the rules for summon monster, the Badger understands and obeys this command. I give it the command "Kill those orphans!", also speaking in Celestial. This is against its nature, so charm monster says I have to make an opposed Cha check against the Badger. Since I'm a Sorc and have an awesomely high Cha score, I win. Now the rules simply say the Badger must *both* obey the summoner's command and my command. In order to figure out which command wins, we make another opposed Cha check, this time between me and the Cleric -- one that favors me as a high-Cha character. Same with dominate monster, only with dominate monster it's a Will save rather than an opposed Cha check. With dominate monster I actually have an advantage -- I can simply give the Badger instructions telepathically. If the summoner should happen not to speak the Badger's language, the summoner is powerless to oppose me with any direct commands. This is one of the very few areas in the game where a Sorcerer has an advantage when using magic. Thanks