Cheating Scrollers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cheating Scrollers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tony111
07-13-04, 07:30 PM Some spells have a casting time of more than one standard action.

(Summon Monster, Control Weather?, Restoration, etc)

Suppose one scribes a scroll of one of these spells.

What is the casting time now that the spell is being used from the scroll?

According to the DMG, it seems the casting time is reduced to one standard action because spell completion items are a standard action to activate.

But this seems too powerful.

Help.

Tony
Nagol
07-13-04, 07:37 PM From the 3.5 SRD:

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
The four ways to activate magic items are described below.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

So, using a scroll is always a standard action regardless of the spell casting time.
Strange Charm
07-13-04, 09:30 PM :b: My original post superseded by the one below.
green_yawgmoth
07-13-04, 09:42 PM Originally posted by Nagol
From the 3.5 SRD:

So, using a scroll is always a standard action regardless of the spell casting time. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. You bolded it, but you didn't read it! A scroll of Control Weather would take 10 minutes to use, unless you wanted to figure out the price of a CW scroll that would take 9 rounds less.

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
derfenrirwolv
07-13-04, 10:21 PM erm...

the item description DOES specifically say otherwise.
Seeker95
07-13-04, 10:48 PM Originally posted by derfenrirwolv
the item description DOES specifically say otherwise. No it doesn't. Using a scroll takes as much time as the spell normally takes, if the spell takes longer than a standard action.

Activating a scroll is no less than a standard action.
Nagol
07-13-04, 11:38 PM Activating a scroll is no less than a standard action.

No. A scroll takes a standard action. The specific rule of spell completion items overrides the general rule of activating magic items.

In addition, there is additional text in the spell completion items that reinforces this ruling:

A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on).

Then the rule is made unambiguously:

Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Note that it is a standard action. Not that it is at least a standard action or that it is normally a standard action or any other qualified language. It is a standard action.
derfenrirwolv
07-13-04, 11:43 PM However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item,---> *unless the item description specifically states otherwise*<----

The item description under scroll says "Activating a spell completion item is a standard action "

So yes, while there is a general rule that controll weather or identify would take their normal time, the scroll rule overrides it, because the casting time rule SAYS that it is overriden by the item rule.
Tony111
07-14-04, 09:12 PM I am still confused.

Tony
Hypersmurf
07-14-04, 09:40 PM Originally posted by derfenrirwolv
The item description under scroll says "Activating a spell completion item is a standard action "

That's not in the item description.

That's in the description of the activation method.

The item description is under the heading "Scroll".

The activation method is under the heading "Spell Completion", and that's where the quote above came from.

There is nothing about the action required under the item description, therefore the item description does not "state otherwise", and the general rule holds true - the casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item.

I can't recall if the 3.5 DMG has the parenthetical comment, but in the 3E DMG, at least, it even stated "However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item (such as a scroll, pair of boots, etc)..."

-Hyp.
Edward
07-14-04, 11:05 PM The item description includes that it is spell completion thus the item inherits all aspects of spell completion. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated a second time

Edward
Hypersmurf
07-14-04, 11:13 PM Originally posted by Edward
The item description includes that it is spell completion thus the item inherits all aspects of spell completion. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated a second time

It does when there's a rule that requires it.

Using a spell completion item is a standard action... but the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item unless the item description states otherwise.

Using a Scroll of Lesser Restoration - a spell completion item - is a standard action, but activating Lesser Restoration requires three rounds unless the item description states otherwise. The item description for "Scroll of Lesser Restoration" is limited to a price in gp. The item description for scrolls in general does not mention activation time.

The item description does not state otherwise, and therefore the casting time is the time required.

-Hyp.
ikkonoishi
07-15-04, 02:24 AM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
It does when there's a rule that requires it.

Using a spell completion item is a standard action... but the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item unless the item description states otherwise.

Using a Scroll of Lesser Restoration - a spell completion item - is a standard action, but activating Lesser Restoration requires three rounds unless the item description states otherwise. The item description for "Scroll of Lesser Restoration" is limited to a price in gp. The item description for scrolls in general does not mention activation time.

The item description does not state otherwise, and therefore the casting time is the time required.

-Hyp.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

It specifically states that scroll take no preperation time.

I don't know how that could be any clearer.
Elhalyn
07-15-04, 02:33 AM It specifically states that scroll take no preparation time.

I don't know how that could be any clearer

Preparation Tine in DnD is the time in the morning that you spend preparing the spell.

In the magic chapter of the PHB is stated that spells are created with a breakpoint. You cast most of it in the morning, leaving only the final gestures and components for casting the spell.

Following the text you bolded is:

All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)

These last words and final gestures are the spell's normal casting time.
Bedevere
07-15-04, 02:51 AM That repeatedly quoted passage specifically states it applies to scrolls, yes? And that any items it applies to are used AS A STANDARD ACTION.

This is a big attraction of scrolls. They have few others, considering that at low levels, when they are one of the most common magic items, the cost can actually be a factor in their making, instead of 'I have more money than your average kingdom, so I can make as many scrolls as I want'.
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 04:46 AM Originally posted by Bedevere
That repeatedly quoted passage specifically states it applies to scrolls, yes? And that any items it applies to are used AS A STANDARD ACTION.

I'm just looking at the passage in the DMG again that says "The casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

"Scroll" is the first example given, and the item description does not state otherwise.

-Hyp.
MystErikEry
07-15-04, 07:12 AM Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Okay, the first two say that they use Spell Trigger activation, but can take longer if the spell says so. The description of Spell Trigger says, however, that activating such an item is a Standard Action (not usually a Standard Action, as you can see)...
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Now, this one says that it's more complicated than Spell Trigger (as Spell Trigger supposedly just needs one word!), and also says that activating such an item is a standard action.

Oddly enough, the description of scrolls makes NO metion of "Spell Completion" at all, but does like to mention that casting a spell from a scroll is nearly exactly like casting a spell from memory.
Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.
Considering that (a) Spell Trigger items (Staffs and Wands) are supposedly easier to activate than Scrolls, as they only require a command word and not the final parts of the spell, (b) Spell Trigger items take the same amount of time to cast as the spell itself, with a minimum of one Standard Action, and (c) Spell Completion Items are basically like casting spells... I'd say casting a spell from a scroll takes as long to cast as the spell itself.

It's obviously going to be easier to just say a command word and control magical energy when using a Wand or a Staff, but you'd think that would just make the activation time one Standard Action for sure, rather than simply ignoring the chance for spell failure... So if you'd think Spell Trigger would be faster than Spell Completion, and it in fact would not be if Spell Completion was always one Standard Action and Spell Trigger was not... I'd think the assumption that scrolls take Standard Actions to cast for all spells is wrong.

Personally, I would make wands and staffs cast spells that normally take longer as a Standard Action, but compensate by having the crafter pay more for the item, since he would have to store the potential effect rather than just the spell itself, which would obviously take time to unwind otherwise...
Nagol
07-15-04, 07:24 AM You will note however, that wands and staves have specific text specifying that if the spell takes longer than 1 standard action, activation does as well. Scrolls and spell completion items in general do not have that text.

The "easier" part of spell trigger compared to spell completion is the lack of somatic component which means their is no risk of triggering an attack of opportunity.
MystErikEry
07-15-04, 07:45 AM True, but what other Spell Trigger items are there? Do Command Word-Activated Wondrous Items count as Spell Trigger items? They don't often finish off spells, though. They often have abilities similar to spells but not necessarily exactly like them.
And what other Spell Completion Items are there other than Scrolls?

And yes, it does help that you don't have to worry about a somatic component with Spell Trigger... But you'd think it'd be faster to cast it!

You do know that casting a Stilled, Silenced Spell with Eschew Materials still provokes an Attack of Oppurtunity, simply because you have to stop dodging attacks in order to concentrate mentally on your spell, since combat is ACTUALLY a series of unsuccessful attacks that are parried, blocked, dodged, or otherwise unimportant, and attacks are times when the opponent or yourself has an opportunity to score a hit, even though there are many times when you (still) do not. Thus, even just concentrating on a spell gives your opponent a chance to take advantage of an opening in your defenses.

Spell Trigger items do not. They obviously must not require any kind of special concentration or pause - just a single word to activate them. Kind of strange how Wands and Staffs take much longer to actually have an effect. Do you say the word, and then the spell happens later on on its own? Do you still have to aim the Wand when the spell is unleashed? If you move sometime after the activation of a Wand, does the target still have to be in range of your new position? What happens if you put the Wand down in the meantime? Do you need to hold the Wand for the entire activation of the spell? What happens if the Wand is shattered or otherwise broken?

I dunno. It's just strange. I personally see Scrolls taking however long to cast as the incantation is - you just don't have to prepare the spell mentally or have the material components available (which is almost negated by the fact that you need the scroll in the first place), whereas Staffs and Wands can just be activated in a snap, since you just have a command word, right?

In fact, since speaking in combat is a Free Action, why shouldn't the Command Word be, too? I know, it's balance issues and so on, but hey, it's what would make sense, presumably... Oh well.
ninja1
07-15-04, 10:28 AM I'm not sure if this adds value to the thread, but I thought I'd give it a shot:
From the 3.5 SRD, spell storing weapon ability
(This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) now I know that this is far from a perfect world, but I would hope that if scrolls were an exception to the general rule about casting times, that they would have a similar disclaimer.

YMMV. :)
tarkin
07-15-04, 01:13 PM The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell.

I.E. If the casting time is 10 minutes, then it takes 10 minutes to read the scroll.

------------------

You can House Rule all you want, but you will be House RUling and people at GenCon/Living City, any other WoTC sponsored games will use the Sage's rulings.
Seeker95
07-15-04, 06:05 PM Originally posted by tarkin
The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell.

I.E. If the casting time is 10 minutes, then it takes 10 minutes to read the scroll. And before someone asks where the Sage said this, check out the newest issue of Dragon, Issue 322, page 104. It takes a standard action, or the length of time it normally takes to cast the spell.
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 06:11 PM Originally posted by tarkin
The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell.

Now, if it's a Divine Spell you want to activate quickly, find someone with the Craft Infusion feat from Masters of the Wild.

In the item description (that's important, that is) for Infusions, it states that activating an infusion is always a Standard action.

Note that a Wand of Quickened Ray of Frost still requires a standard action to activate (because the item description specifies 'a standard action, or the casting time of the spell if it's longer'), but a Scroll of Quickened Ray of Frost, as written, is a free action to activate, because the casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, unless the item description states otherwise (which it doesn't).

Of course, there's still an action involved in actually retrieving a stored scroll in the first place...

-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 11:16 PM Originally posted by MystErikEry
True, but what other Spell Trigger items are there?

Bow of True Arrows (Sword and Fist).

-Hyp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tony111 07-13-04, 07:30 PM	Some spells have a casting time of more than one standard action. (Summon Monster, Control Weather?, Restoration, etc) Suppose one scribes a scroll of one of these spells. What is the casting time now that the spell is being used from the scroll? According to the DMG, it seems the casting time is reduced to one standard action because spell completion items are a standard action to activate. But this seems too powerful. Help. Tony
Nagol 07-13-04, 07:37 PM	From the 3.5 SRD: Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. The four ways to activate magic items are described below. Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. So, using a scroll is always a standard action regardless of the spell casting time.
Strange Charm 07-13-04, 09:30 PM	:b: My original post superseded by the one below.
green_yawgmoth 07-13-04, 09:42 PM	Originally posted by Nagol From the 3.5 SRD: So, using a scroll is always a standard action regardless of the spell casting time. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. You bolded it, but you didn't read it! A scroll of Control Weather would take 10 minutes to use, unless you wanted to figure out the price of a CW scroll that would take 9 rounds less. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
derfenrirwolv 07-13-04, 10:21 PM	erm... the item description DOES specifically say otherwise.
Seeker95 07-13-04, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by derfenrirwolv the item description DOES specifically say otherwise. No it doesn't. Using a scroll takes as much time as the spell normally takes, if the spell takes longer than a standard action. Activating a scroll is no less than a standard action.
Nagol 07-13-04, 11:38 PM	Activating a scroll is no less than a standard action. No. A scroll takes a standard action. The specific rule of spell completion items overrides the general rule of activating magic items. In addition, there is additional text in the spell completion items that reinforces this ruling: A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). Then the rule is made unambiguously: Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. Note that it is a standard action. Not that it is at least a standard action or that it is normally a standard action or any other qualified language. It is a standard action.
derfenrirwolv 07-13-04, 11:43 PM	However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item,---> unless the item description specifically states otherwise<---- The item description under scroll says "Activating a spell completion item is a standard action " So yes, while there is a general rule that controll weather or identify would take their normal time, the scroll rule overrides it, because the casting time rule SAYS that it is overriden by the item rule.
Tony111 07-14-04, 09:12 PM	I am still confused. Tony
Hypersmurf 07-14-04, 09:40 PM	Originally posted by derfenrirwolv The item description under scroll says "Activating a spell completion item is a standard action " That's not in the item description. That's in the description of the activation method. The item description is under the heading "Scroll". The activation method is under the heading "Spell Completion", and that's where the quote above came from. There is nothing about the action required under the item description, therefore the item description does not "state otherwise", and the general rule holds true - the casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item. I can't recall if the 3.5 DMG has the parenthetical comment, but in the 3E DMG, at least, it even stated "However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item (such as a scroll, pair of boots, etc)..." -Hyp.
Edward 07-14-04, 11:05 PM	The item description includes that it is spell completion thus the item inherits all aspects of spell completion. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated a second time Edward
Hypersmurf 07-14-04, 11:13 PM	Originally posted by Edward The item description includes that it is spell completion thus the item inherits all aspects of spell completion. It doesn’t need to be explicitly stated a second time It does when there's a rule that requires it. Using a spell completion item is a standard action... but the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item unless the item description states otherwise. Using a Scroll of Lesser Restoration - a spell completion item - is a standard action, but activating Lesser Restoration requires three rounds unless the item description states otherwise. The item description for "Scroll of Lesser Restoration" is limited to a price in gp. The item description for scrolls in general does not mention activation time. The item description does not state otherwise, and therefore the casting time is the time required. -Hyp.
ikkonoishi 07-15-04, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf It does when there's a rule that requires it. Using a spell completion item is a standard action... but the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power from an item unless the item description states otherwise. Using a Scroll of Lesser Restoration - a spell completion item - is a standard action, but activating Lesser Restoration requires three rounds unless the item description states otherwise. The item description for "Scroll of Lesser Restoration" is limited to a price in gp. The item description for scrolls in general does not mention activation time. The item description does not state otherwise, and therefore the casting time is the time required. -Hyp. Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. It specifically states that scroll take no preperation time. I don't know how that could be any clearer.
Elhalyn 07-15-04, 02:33 AM	It specifically states that scroll take no preparation time. I don't know how that could be any clearer Preparation Tine in DnD is the time in the morning that you spend preparing the spell. In the magic chapter of the PHB is stated that spells are created with a breakpoint. You cast most of it in the morning, leaving only the final gestures and components for casting the spell. Following the text you bolded is: All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on) These last words and final gestures are the spell's normal casting time.
Bedevere 07-15-04, 02:51 AM	That repeatedly quoted passage specifically states it applies to scrolls, yes? And that any items it applies to are used AS A STANDARD ACTION. This is a big attraction of scrolls. They have few others, considering that at low levels, when they are one of the most common magic items, the cost can actually be a factor in their making, instead of 'I have more money than your average kingdom, so I can make as many scrolls as I want'.
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by Bedevere That repeatedly quoted passage specifically states it applies to scrolls, yes? And that any items it applies to are used AS A STANDARD ACTION. I'm just looking at the passage in the DMG again that says "The casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise." "Scroll" is the first example given, and the item description does not state otherwise. -Hyp.
MystErikEry 07-15-04, 07:12 AM	Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures). Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole. Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Okay, the first two say that they use Spell Trigger activation, but can take longer if the spell says so. The description of Spell Trigger says, however, that activating such an item is a Standard Action (not usually a Standard Action, as you can see)... Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. Now, this one says that it's more complicated than Spell Trigger (as Spell Trigger supposedly just needs one word!), and also says that activating such an item is a standard action. Oddly enough, the description of scrolls makes NO metion of "Spell Completion" at all, but does like to mention that casting a spell from a scroll is nearly exactly like casting a spell from memory. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell. Considering that (a) Spell Trigger items (Staffs and Wands) are supposedly easier to activate than Scrolls, as they only require a command word and not the final parts of the spell, (b) Spell Trigger items take the same amount of time to cast as the spell itself, with a minimum of one Standard Action, and (c) Spell Completion Items are basically like casting spells... I'd say casting a spell from a scroll takes as long to cast as the spell itself. It's obviously going to be easier to just say a command word and control magical energy when using a Wand or a Staff, but you'd think that would just make the activation time one Standard Action for sure, rather than simply ignoring the chance for spell failure... So if you'd think Spell Trigger would be faster than Spell Completion, and it in fact would not be if Spell Completion was always one Standard Action and Spell Trigger was not... I'd think the assumption that scrolls take Standard Actions to cast for all spells is wrong. Personally, I would make wands and staffs cast spells that normally take longer as a Standard Action, but compensate by having the crafter pay more for the item, since he would have to store the potential effect rather than just the spell itself, which would obviously take time to unwind otherwise...
Nagol 07-15-04, 07:24 AM	You will note however, that wands and staves have specific text specifying that if the spell takes longer than 1 standard action, activation does as well. Scrolls and spell completion items in general do not have that text. The "easier" part of spell trigger compared to spell completion is the lack of somatic component which means their is no risk of triggering an attack of opportunity.
MystErikEry 07-15-04, 07:45 AM	True, but what other Spell Trigger items are there? Do Command Word-Activated Wondrous Items count as Spell Trigger items? They don't often finish off spells, though. They often have abilities similar to spells but not necessarily exactly like them. And what other Spell Completion Items are there other than Scrolls? And yes, it does help that you don't have to worry about a somatic component with Spell Trigger... But you'd think it'd be faster to cast it! You do know that casting a Stilled, Silenced Spell with Eschew Materials still provokes an Attack of Oppurtunity, simply because you have to stop dodging attacks in order to concentrate mentally on your spell, since combat is ACTUALLY a series of unsuccessful attacks that are parried, blocked, dodged, or otherwise unimportant, and attacks are times when the opponent or yourself has an opportunity to score a hit, even though there are many times when you (still) do not. Thus, even just concentrating on a spell gives your opponent a chance to take advantage of an opening in your defenses. Spell Trigger items do not. They obviously must not require any kind of special concentration or pause - just a single word to activate them. Kind of strange how Wands and Staffs take much longer to actually have an effect. Do you say the word, and then the spell happens later on on its own? Do you still have to aim the Wand when the spell is unleashed? If you move sometime after the activation of a Wand, does the target still have to be in range of your new position? What happens if you put the Wand down in the meantime? Do you need to hold the Wand for the entire activation of the spell? What happens if the Wand is shattered or otherwise broken? I dunno. It's just strange. I personally see Scrolls taking however long to cast as the incantation is - you just don't have to prepare the spell mentally or have the material components available (which is almost negated by the fact that you need the scroll in the first place), whereas Staffs and Wands can just be activated in a snap, since you just have a command word, right? In fact, since speaking in combat is a Free Action, why shouldn't the Command Word be, too? I know, it's balance issues and so on, but hey, it's what would make sense, presumably... Oh well.
ninja1 07-15-04, 10:28 AM	I'm not sure if this adds value to the thread, but I thought I'd give it a shot: From the 3.5 SRD, spell storing weapon ability (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) now I know that this is far from a perfect world, but I would hope that if scrolls were an exception to the general rule about casting times, that they would have a similar disclaimer. YMMV. :)
tarkin 07-15-04, 01:13 PM	The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell. I.E. If the casting time is 10 minutes, then it takes 10 minutes to read the scroll. ------------------ You can House Rule all you want, but you will be House RUling and people at GenCon/Living City, any other WoTC sponsored games will use the Sage's rulings.
Seeker95 07-15-04, 06:05 PM	Originally posted by tarkin The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell. I.E. If the casting time is 10 minutes, then it takes 10 minutes to read the scroll. And before someone asks where the Sage said this, check out the newest issue of Dragon, Issue 322, page 104. It takes a standard action, or the length of time it normally takes to cast the spell.
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 06:11 PM	Originally posted by tarkin The sage has answered this question. He clearly said that a scroll does NOT speed up the time it takes to cast a spell. Now, if it's a Divine Spell you want to activate quickly, find someone with the Craft Infusion feat from Masters of the Wild. In the item description (that's important, that is) for Infusions, it states that activating an infusion is always a Standard action. Note that a Wand of Quickened Ray of Frost still requires a standard action to activate (because the item description specifies 'a standard action, or the casting time of the spell if it's longer'), but a Scroll of Quickened Ray of Frost, as written, is a free action to activate, because the casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, unless the item description states otherwise (which it doesn't). Of course, there's still an action involved in actually retrieving a stored scroll in the first place... -Hyp.
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 11:16 PM	Originally posted by MystErikEry True, but what other Spell Trigger items are there? Bow of True Arrows (Sword and Fist). -Hyp.