Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunkel 05-28-06, 08:41 PM	Hello everyone. We have a bit of a situation in our party - the two warriors we have are half-orc barbarian and dwarven fighter. Half-orc is, true to his race, class and intellect (wis+int < 15), usually charges off into every enemy he sees, often leaving most of party way behind. To offset this and allow dwarf to keep up, I tried to come up with a simple magical item of limited use, following DMG rules (P.285, T-7.33) on creation... Item I'm aiming for is pair of boots enchanted with ability to cast Expedious Retreat thrice per day. Can someone verify that this is correct price calculation for it: ( Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800 ) / ( 5 / Charges per day ) Which would give me : ( 1 x 1 x 1800 ) / ( 5 / 3 ) for total price of 1080g, give or take? Accounting for masterwork plate boots' value, I'm aiming at 1500g. On spot or not? Main reason I'm asking is because it seems unusually cheap... I am aware the price rises exponentially with level of spells, but still, there's a ton of useful 1st level spells that could be itemised like this. 5x day Cure Light Wounds Ring for 2000gp?
risner 05-28-06, 11:44 PM	First, only trinkets tend to have less than caster level 3 (Hand of Mage), so make it level 3. So by your method it is 3241 gp for 3 times a day. (1*3*1800/(5/3) ) Second, I might model it from Boots of Striding and Springing. Remove the +5 Jump leaving between 1250 and 3000 for the +10 speed. Split it for 2000. Sounds like maybe (speed/10)^2 * 2000 for always on. 2000/(5/3) for 3 charges a day. 1,200 gp for +10 speed 3 times a day 4,800 gp for +20 speed 3 times a day 10,800 gp for +30 speed 3 times a day Remember, the level*spell level*1800 is a "last" resort.
Seeker95 05-30-06, 09:46 AM	Skip the concern entirely. Make him get boots of speed. :D Similarly, model them after the boots of speed, which takes a 3rd level spell made at CL 10 to get a ten round duration, resulting in a 78% reduction in price. If we use this pattern for the boots of expeditious retreat: 1 x 10 x 1800 x .78 = 3,960 round to 4,000gp. Boots of Expeditious Retreat As a free action, the wearer can click his boot heels together, enabling him to act as though affected by an expeditous retreat spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the expeditious retreat effect need not be consecutive rounds. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, expeditious retreat; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.
tarkin 05-30-06, 12:54 PM	Correct. Poor magic item designers always want full control over duration, etc. and pick the best possible thing. Good DM's say no, you can't design the item willy-nilly, there are certain combinations that you simply can not get. As a general rule, I have NEVER seen a good reason to grant a 5xday item. They are almost always someone looking for an excuse to cheapen the item without taking a real limitation. 1/day or 3/day will take care of 90% of players needs,
Dunkel 05-30-06, 07:09 PM	Skip the concern entirely. Make him get boots of speed. :D Similarly, model them after the boots of speed, which takes a 3rd level spell made at CL 10 to get a ten round duration, resulting in a 78% reduction in price. If we use this pattern for the boots of expeditious retreat: 1 x 10 x 1800 x .78 = 3,960 round to 4,000gp. Why CL 10 for Expeditious Retreat? that gives boots duration of 10 minutes not rounds. That'd actually significantly alter the usability and general purpose of the item, from a brief 'close in for combat' boost type of item to a 'let's chase down someone in 60 rounds of great boost' item. I mean, a dwarf with those boots would be getting base movement of 50ft/round, dramatically more for any pedestrian, and enough to let him keep pace with at least some mounts. Additionally, please take note of the fact that it adds a +12 to wearer's Jump skill while ER is active - that makes that user with average strength won't have -any- difficulty making 25-foot leaps, and characters with decent strength and some skill points in Jump would even be able to quite reliably hop onto 10-foot ledges or over 10-foot walls. Amount of exploitation this could lead to if duration was anything like 10 minutes per use was my primary reason to keep the CL (and thus duration) to a minimum. After all, all I need is some yokel simply jumping across every chasm, pit, glypth, trap and crumbling bridge...
Seeker95 05-30-06, 08:17 PM	Dunkel, tell me... are you concerned that the Boots of Expeditious Retreat are too expensive or too cheap at 4000gp? Magic items do what the magic item description says. A magic item is not the same as casting a spell. The write-up of the boots I provided said ten rounds. Ten rounds is ten rounds. Splitting hairs on the details is fine, but you are ignoring what is there to argue about what is not there.
Dunkel 05-31-06, 01:06 AM	Seeker : I'm not concerned about the price - characters will find the item, not purchase it, as buying and selling items is not a common practice in the setting. I was just trying to understand the mechanic that brought you to 10 round spell at CL 10, as I'm trying to get more familiar and used to 3.5 item creation system (rule-side). I -know- I can just say 'you find boots that let you run x feet faster for y rounds n times a day'. But since I actually like to know the subtle nuances of gamesystem I'm using, I asked the questions above - namely, if the prices I calculated are actually correct. Since a spellcaster himself pays the costs related to magical item he creates, I see no reason for one to use CL 10 Cure Light Wounds spell in creation of i.e. CLW Ring, when he could use CL 1 spell and save 90% of expenses? Even if rules say caster can't lower his CL when casting a spell ( I don't know if such a rule exists or not), he could use a scroll... To summarise, Seeker: I'm not in situation where I have to craft, or buy said item. But as GM, I want to be in position to give definite answers if any of players want to create items or order items to be custom-created for them.
Seeker95 05-31-06, 10:18 AM	I was just trying to understand the mechanic that brought you to 10 round spell at CL 10, as I'm trying to get more familiar and used to 3.5 item creation system (rule-side).I followed the first rule of new magic item creation: Pattern a new item after an existing item. The boots of expeditious retreat I offered are patterned after boots of speed. They last the same duration, have the same caster level, and otherwise function in the same manner. The price was based on a percentage adjustment similar to those of the boots of speed.
Zherog 05-31-06, 10:32 AM	In general, Dunkel, a magic item shouldn't cast a spell. In fact, it could be reasonably argued that in a lot of cases the spell in the pre-reqs is more flavor than mechanics. Here's a quick guide to putting together reasonable magic items: Figure out what you want the item to do. Example: increase the user's speed for a limited amount of time. Check if there's any items that come close. Example: Boots of striding and springing or boots of speed Compare the utility of your idea to the similar item you found; use that to estimate a price. Example: see Seeker's entry If you can't find a comporable item, resort to the various formulas in the DMG Figure out the prereqs to make the item It's rough, but if you follow those basic steps, you should usually be OK.
risner 05-31-06, 11:55 AM	Why CL 10 for Expeditious Retreat? that gives boots duration of 10 minutes not rounds. Additionally, please take note of the fact that it adds a +12 to wearer's Jump skill while ER is active But since I actually like to know the subtle nuances of gamesystem I'm using, I asked the questions above - namely, if the prices I calculated are actually correct. Since a spellcaster himself pays the costs related to magical item he creates, I see no reason for one to use CL 10 Cure Light Wounds spell in creation of i.e. CLW Ring, when he could use CL 1 spell and save 90% of expenses? Even if rules say caster can't lower his CL when casting a spell ( I don't know if such a rule exists or not), he could use a scroll... Couple answers: 1) The item would give 10 rounds as seeker created, ignore the actual spell ER. 2) +jump is based on their speed, it would function unless you changed to item to not grant the + to jump skill based on speed (which you certainly could do.) 3) You are missing the subtle nuances. As others have said, don't think of the item as a way to cast a spell (like a scroll.) So your prices in the original post are WAY off the mark and are using the wrong formula because boots of speed and boots of striding&springing exist. If no items similar to those two boots existed, then your prices may have been correct. 4) The other thing to consider is the fact if you did make an item similar to boots of striding, you would have to force the creator (in your case some NPC long long ago) to have 15 ranks in Jump to make the item. BoS&S provides 10' and requires 5 ranks, so 30' would be 15 ranks. 5) Also your comment "when he could use CL 1 spell and save 90% of expenses?" means you are missing the nuance, that he wouldn't do so because he COULDN'T do so. There are only a handful of CL1 items. The rest of the Craft Wondrous items are CL3 minimum (98 percent or more?) Many (most) are higher than 3. The rules say you can lower the CL for any spell to the minimum of the spell (so a level 20 wiz could cast a level 3 fireball with level 5 CL minimum). But the rules for item creation forces you to use similar rules for similar items. So you can't cheat the rules by trying to use a level 1 spell at CL1 to get it as cheap as possible (especially when more expensive similar items exist.)